Box junction - highway code does not reflect the law

[Daytona2]

Having just stumbled across some old box junction threads on here, I'm posting this in case it helps anyone in future. The Highway Code guidelines for box junctions are an inaccurate interpretation of the law, which says -

 

"Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044

 

7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in

paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall

each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to

enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box

junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any

person -

 

(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box

junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

 

(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented

from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles

which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, Schedule 19, Part II, 7

My understanding of this is -

 

Legal to stop -

 

Turning right and not blocked by stationary vehicles

Turning right & oncoming traffic

Turning right & queued behind vehicle turning right

Not turning right and not blocked by stationary vehicles

 

Illegal to stop -

 

Not turning right and blocked by stationary vehicles

 

Legal to remain stationary -

 

Turning right & oncoming traffic

Turning right & queued behind vehicle turning right

Not turning right.

 

Illegal to remain stationary -

 

At head of a queue turning right & no oncoming traffic

[Jamberson]

So what's your complaint with the way the Highway Code summarises it?

[patdavies]

The Highway Code is exactly right.

 

There is no offence of stopping in a box junction; the offence is entering when your exit is not clear (unless turning right and delayed by oncoming traffic).

[green_and_mean]

The Highway Code is exactly right.

 

There is no offence of stopping in a box junction; the offence is entering when your exit is not clear (unless turning right and delayed by oncoming traffic).

 

Its not an offence to enter if the exit is not clear.

[Jamberson]

Whenever a law or regulation is sumarised, as in the Highway Code, it loses finer detail. In principle, you should not enter if you can see that you can't drive through and out, because you will have to stop there. The exception is to give way. It may not be comprehensively stated, but I don't see what the point of conflict is, which is why I asked the OP to clarify.

[sailor sam]

Apparently the offence is commited on entering the box;

 

“no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”.

Taken from;

http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow.htm#Cases

 

Seems pretty clear to me. TBH, I don't need a yellow box to tell me that I would block a junction if I attempt to cross it when there is stationary traffic on the other side. common sense really.

[green_and_mean]

Apparently the offence is commited on entering the box;

 

 

No the offence is commited on stopping, what your saying is like if the law says 'no person shall drive a vehicle on a public road whilst drunk' the offence is commited when you drive a car on a public road regardless of being drunk.

[sailor sam]

No the offence is commited on stopping, what your saying is like if the law says 'no person shall drive a vehicle on a public road whilst drunk' the offence is commited when you drive a car on a public road regardless of being drunk.

 

I'm not saying anything G & M, as far as I am aware the offence is caused when you enter a box junction when your exit road (or lane) is blocked which causes you to stop within the box. Exemption is when you intend to turn right but are prevented from doing so by on comming traffic. Not sure how else to interperate it TBH.

[Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)]

 

 

 

[crem]

The offence is stated more correctly when quoted with the word "AND" included in the sentence. i.e. a person should not cause a vehicle to enter AND stop within the box junction etc... so of course you may cause a vehicle to do one or the other, but as patdavies and SS are saying; the offence occurs at the point of entry when the "stop" within the box is clearly apparent to be a result also (which isn't covered by the right hand turn exemption)

[sailor sam]

Agreed Crem. But I don't see what the argument is here TBH. I can't think of a situ where you would enter a box when your exit is blocked by stationary traffic and expect not to have commited an offence. You may have a leg to stand on if another vehicle entered the box from a different road (by jumping a red light for example) and then occupying the 'last' space in your intended exit route. But then no doubt the video evidence would be bought into play if that were the case. The only other defence is if the box junction is non-compliant, but that would be clutching at straws IMHO because surely a compitent driver would know whether he/she was likely to obstruct a junction or not by entering it.

[green_and_mean]

I'm not saying anything G & M, as far as I am aware the offence is caused when you enter a box junction when your exit road (or lane) is blocked which causes you to stop within the box. Exemption is when you intend to turn right but are prevented from doing so by on comming traffic. Not sure how else to interperate it TBH.

[Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)]

 

 

 

 

My point remains that entering whilst the exit is blocked is not an offence as Pat indicated, it is the stopping that creates the offence not entering, it is fact impossible to stop in junction without having first entered. The law does not state that the exit must be blocked when you enter merely that once entered the stationary traffic causes you to stop. You could remove the entering from the statute and the law would not be changed in its interpretation.

[sailor sam]

 

Extract from The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002;

 

7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

My Interpretation from that is that the offence is commited WHEN you enter the box while your exit route is blocked by stationary traffic which obviously is going to cause you to stop in the box. I would of thought any reasonable person would not enter the box unless they were confident of clearing it. Persoanlly (as i've said before) I do not see what the issue is here. Ticket Fighter also states that the offence is 'entering' the box. No doubt you will continue to dis-agree with me G & M but frankly i think the 'debate' has run it's course. You carry on entering the box and i'll wait untill my exit route is clear!

[sailor sam]

My point remains that entering whilst the exit is blocked is not an offence as Pat indicated, it is the stopping that creates the offence not entering, it is fact impossible to stop in junction without having first entered. The law does not state that the exit must be blocked when you enter merely that once entered the stationary traffic causes you to stop. You could remove the entering from the statute and the law would not be changed in its interpretation.

 

Not how I read what Pat 'indicated' in post 3 either which was;

The Highway Code is exactly right.

 

There is no offence of stopping in a box junction; the offence is

entering

when your exit is not clear (unless turning right and delayed by oncoming traffic).

 

 

[green_and_mean]

 

Extract from The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002;

 

7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

My Interpretation from that is that the offence is commited WHEN you enter the box while your exit route is blocked by stationary traffic which obviously is going to cause you to stop in the box. I would of thought any reasonable person would not enter the box unless they were confident of clearing it. Persoanlly (as i've said before) I do not see what the issue is here. Ticket Fighter also states that the offence is 'entering' the box. No doubt you will continue to dis-agree with me G & M but frankly i think the 'debate' has run it's course. You carry on entering the box and i'll wait untill my exit route is clear!

 

I will carry on entering the box junction as will millions of people a day since its not an offence, how many people actually stop in free flowing traffic until the vehicles in front have actually cleared the junction? Its only an offence to stop, entering the junction whilst the exit is blocked is not an offence and despite all your red text you have not demonstrated otherwise, provided the vehicles on the opposite side of the junction have moved by the time you get there you have not commited an offence.

[sailor sam]

I will carry on entering the box junction as will millions of people a day since its not an offence, how many people actually stop in free flowing traffic until the vehicles in front have actually cleared the junction? Its only an offence to stop, entering the junction whilst the exit is blocked is not an offence and despite all your red text you have not demonstrated otherwise, provided the vehicles on the opposite side of the junction have moved by the time you get there you have not commited an offence.

 

Lol, you may like to contact Ticket Fighter then and tell them they have got it wrong. It seems to me that your way of looking at this is the same as being a 'amber gambler'. I think my way (and it seems a few others) will ensure I won't get ever get a ticket. Your way makes a ticket likely because you cannot be sure that the stationary traffic on the other side of the junction will start moving before you get there. Unless you are Mystic Meg of course...

[sailor sam]

Duplicated post deleted

[Jamberson]

It is an offence to enter the junction, but only if certain other conditions materialise. Everyone understands that - it's pointless debating back and forth.

 

The question is - what point does the OP want to raise (if any).

[sailor sam]

It is an offence to enter the junction, but only if certain other conditions materialise. Everyone understands that - it's pointless debating back and forth.

 

Not quite everybody it seems.

 

The question is - what point does the OP want to raise (if any).

 

Dunno but what ever it is, he/she will find the best info from the link i provided in post 6.

[Aretnap]

 

Extract from The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002;

 

7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

My Interpretation from that is that the offence is commited WHEN you enter the box while your exit route is blocked by stationary traffic which obviously is going to cause you to stop in the box. I would of thought any reasonable person would not enter the box unless they were confident of clearing it. Persoanlly (as i've said before) I do not see what the issue is here. Ticket Fighter also states that the offence is 'entering' the box. No doubt you will continue to dis-agree with me G & M but frankly i think the 'debate' has run it's course. You carry on entering the box and i'll wait untill my exit route is clear!

 

There are two elements to the offence: (a) entering when the exit is blocked by stationary traffic and (b) stopping as a result of that stationary traffic. Both must occur, so the offence is not complete until you stop. G&M's correct that if the stationary traffic were to move while you were crossing the box junction, allowing you to exit it without stopping, there would be no offence. Not saying that it's a good idea to try it, just that there would be no offence if it happened.

 

It's not quite the same as being an amber gambler in that it's an offence to go through an amber light, unless it would not be possible to stop safely. Amber gamblers commit the offence of failing to comply with a traffic signal, whether or not they actually beat the red (at least they do if they could have stop safely if they wanted to).

[Al27]

No offence/contravention is committed unless the car is stationery in any case. You could enter the box when the exit is blocked and U-turn or weave the vehicle the car at 1mph and not be committing the particular offence we're talking about.

 

The bold highlighted statement should have so that the vehicle has to stop within the box also in black and underlined.

[sailor sam]

There are two elements to the offence: (a) entering when the exit is blocked by stationary traffic and (b) stopping as a result of that stationary traffic. Both must occur, so the offence is not complete until you stop.

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that there ar '2 key elements' to the offence. But the fact is the offence is commited when you enter the box while your exit is blocked. So it follows that it is highly likely that you will have to stop in the box itself. If however, you enter the box while your exit route is clear and the situ changes (like a car changing lanes or turning out of a side road ect) and your exit becomes blocked AFTER you entered the box, then you could appeal a ticket. then the CCTV would come into play.

 

G&M's correct that if the stationary traffic were to move while you were crossing the box junction, allowing you to exit it without stopping, there would be no offence. Not saying that it's a good idea to try it, just that there would be no offence if it happened.

 

Bit of a gamble don't you think? How many times are you likely to acheive that?

 

It's not quite the same as being an amber gambler in that it's an offence to go through an amber light, unless it would not be possible to stop safely. Amber gamblers commit the offence of failing to comply with a traffic signal, whether or not they actually beat the red (at least they do if they could have stop safely if they wanted to).

 

So where's the difference in risking going through an amber light and relying on the defence that circumstances prevented you from stopping, or risking entering a box junction when the exit road is blocked and relying on the traffic to begin moving before you reach the other side of the box to avoid a ticket?

[sailor sam]

No offence/contravention is committed unless the car is stationery in any case. You could enter the box when the exit is blocked and U-turn or weave the vehicle the car at 1mph and not be committing the particular offence we're talking about.

 

The bold highlighted statement should have so that the vehicle has to stop within the box also in black and underlined.

 

LOL! Or maybe you could do donuts in the middle of the box to keep you moving thus also avoid getting a ticket!

[crem]

I like donuts!

[green_and_mean]

I don't think anyone is disputing that there ar '2 key elements' to the offence. But the fact is the offence is commited when you enter the box while your exit is blocked.

 

No its not, its like saying there are two key elements to driving at 100mph (driving and doing 100mph) and the offence is commited when you drive. The offence is only commited when you stop how hard is that to understand???

[sailor sam]

No its not, its like saying there are two key elements to driving at 100mph (driving and doing 100mph) and the offence is commited when you drive. The offence is only commited when you stop how hard is that to understand???

 

Simple, because the offence is comitted when you enter the box when your exit road is blocked. Gospel according to [Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)]

 

Highway code rule:

174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

 

Says nothing about stopping apart from if your turning right and waiting for on-comming traffic. How hard is that to understand???

 

I reckon this has run it's course now. It was The OP who asked clarification (i think) and he has only posted once!

 

I don't need advice on this G & M and we obviously are not going to agree and I am confident of not getting any tickets from the way i use box junctions but thanks anyway.