Proving you checked in/out on oyster

[tiredTraveller]

If its not on the TFL computer then you didnt touch in, there is no grey area or loop hole.

 

Have you checked your history since it happened? It does sometime lag behind - I got a lot of grief on the DLR over that once.

I was called a lair and a thief, girlfriend was reduced to tears by the staff member involve. During the discussion he swiped it several times and each time a little more of my journey appeared but he still refused to accept the possibility of a system problem. half an hour or so later everything appeared on the travel history screen of the machine as it should do.

I replied to their letter with a photograph of the machine printout and they responded still denying that any system problem could possibly have occurred, but all the same could I pay the single fare? It was phrased as if they were doing me a favour and there was no admission of any mistake on their part. I couldn't be bothered to argue any more for an apology or acknowledgement that would never happen, the fare price seemed the right outcome so I just paid it.

[andydd]

Have you checked your history since it happened? It does sometime lag behind - I got a lot of grief on the DLR over that once.

I was called a lair and a thief, girlfriend was reduced to tears by the staff member involve. During the discussion he swiped it several times and each time a little more of my journey appeared but he still refused to accept the possibility of a system problem. half an hour or so later everything appeared on the travel history screen of the machine as it should do.

I replied to their letter with a photograph of the machine printout and they responded still denying that any system problem could possibly have occurred, but all the same could I pay the single fare? It was phrased as if they were doing me a favour and there was no admission of any mistake on their part. I couldn't be bothered to argue any more for an apology or acknowledgement that would never happen, the fare price seemed the right outcome so I just paid it.

 

But I dont think thats how the cards work, they actual card contains the recent journey history actual on the chip inside and there is no reason for it to connect to the central TfL database and update.

 

Andy

[andydd]

Some interesting links..

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23454596-oyster-card-cloning-fears.do

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card#Technical_faults

 

The Wiki page has quite a lot of interesting points such as "The use of Oyster cards on buses has been subject to criticism following a number of prosecutions by TfL of passengers who had failed to "touch in" correctly on boarding a bus. In particular, problems have been highlighted in connection with the quality of error messages given to passengers when touching in has failed for any reason. In one case, a passenger successfully appealed against his conviction for fare evasion when the court noted that the passenger believed he had paid for his journey because the Oyster reader did not give sufficient error warning."

 

Im sure there are lots more.

 

Andy

[Grotesque]

Good links, interesting!

Cheers!

[The Urbanite]

Are you saying that a correctly working reader will give erroneous readings?

 

In the past, the handheld reader has given its own interpretation (not always a strictly complete account) of what a passenger has done, which means that it sometimes omits bits of information which will most certainly show on a Trim JSR. Whether this is still the case, I don't know - the technical problems may have been fixed.

Edited January 10, 2012 by The Urbanite

[jimmyjimmy]

To the person who said that the card shows on records and there is no grey area - This is not true. I have a contactless bank card and it causes my card to throw an error when trying to be read and I've spoken to TFL who have no record of it showing on my Oyster even thuogh it's happened many times.

[andydd]

Sometimes my Oyster doesnt work properally at gates and I have to remove it from my wallet and try again.

 

If its not being read you would expect it though to do nothing..ie..no green/red or orange light but when it doesnt work properally a red light shows..so the reader is reading it..just not correctly..usually after a few tried it works ok and the green light flashes.

 

Andy

[SRPO]

To the person who said that the card shows on records and there is no grey area - This is not true. I have a contactless bank card and it causes my card to throw an error when trying to be read and I've spoken to TFL who have no record of it showing on my Oyster even thuogh it's happened many times.

 

Please re-read my posts, when you touch-in/out it is recorded on your card. This can then be read with a handheld device, that is not a grey area.

[andydd]

Please re-read my posts, when you touch-in/out it is recorded on your card. This can then be read with a handheld device, that is not a grey area.

 

Although further to this..as I pointed out..whislt I have no doubt the touch in info is on the card, sometimes cards arnt read properally and take a few attempts or perhaps need to be removed from the wallet/bag/etc that many people have theirs in.

 

If it were me and the handheld reader said I hadnt touched in when I had then I would insist that the handheld reader is retried untill the correct result is dispalyed..if still no joy..I would insit on how i could prove my innocence (I assum,e by showing that the TfL records do indeed show a touch in).

 

Andy

[dan2011]

Further information:

 

1. I called TFL again, and obtained detailed logs, they again show that I did touchin, but this is where it gets interesting

 

2. It shows that I touched in on a platform validator (NOTE it is not on the platform, but where you would buy tickets)

 

3. It also showed I had paid MORE for my journey than I should have and they gave me a refund . Ironically I had been paying more for my journey for 3 years

 

Hence my intent was NOT not to travel without paying, nor was my intent not to touch in, nor did I forget to touch in, however I was still thrown off the train, and asked to pay a penalty. Surely this cannot be correct in any organisation. So why is their a discrepancy

 

Initially they thought it was because I touched in at the wrong place, problem is that elephant and castle and the tube station are two physical locations, hence its impossible to accidentally touch the wrong oyster machine. Then I was told that I may have touched in on an exit rather than a entry. Again problem here is that the tube has two separate locations for entry and exit, and my history shows I touched out at the tube, and then touched in again at elephant and castle platform validator (which they do not have on the tube). The problem may have arose from something called a 'continuation journey' which I do not understand, it either means I did not need to touchin at elephant and castle over-rail which is just plain dumb, since anyone not familiar with the route will always touch in and out at the two locations, which can be confirmed by the 100000 odd people who do this everyday, and hence are over paying without knowing about it.

 

Getting back to point, I had over-paid for my journey, I had touched in, which has now been confirmed, hence the readers did not show something or showed something incorrect, if that is the case however small they cannot use these for penalty fares unless the RPI understand the oyster system. Am awaiting for FCC to get back to me.

 

Danny

 

P.S I feel its a little unfair that ppl on this forum automatically assume that the user is always in the wrong. I am beginning to wonder how many ppl how this same journey have paid £20 and in fact more so that they did not goto court.

[tiredTraveller]

Please re-read my posts, when you touch-in/out it is recorded on your card. This can then be read with a handheld device, that is not a grey area.

 

According to wikipedia:

 

'As a smartcard system, the Oyster card uses a distributed settlement framework. All transactions are settled between the card and reader alone. Readers transmit the transactions to the back office in batches but there is no need for this to be done in real time. The Oyster back office system acts mainly as a record of transactions that have been completed between cards and readers. This provides a high degree of resilience in the system.'

 

So I suppose it is all stored on the card and initially viewed there, but with some kind of comeback if things stop adding up for whatever reason (read: someone inevitably figures out how to re encode the card in ways they really shouldn't). It doesn't explain the hassle I got though - looks like I'm going to have to go with user error there, which just makes the thing more annoying.

[Grotesque]

What's Wikipedia?

[andydd]

What's Wikipedia?

 

Really ??

[SRPO]

What's Wikipedia?

 

Its something on the internet that some people think is a reliable source of reference.

[The Urbanite]

P.S I feel its a little unfair that ppl on this forum automatically assume that the user is always in the wrong. I am beginning to wonder how many ppl how this same journey have paid £20 and in fact more so that they did not goto court.

 

I'm fully conversant with the issues surrounding OSIs/continuation validations and can sympathise, perhaps even empathise with your situation. FCC are already well aware of the potential for problems as there was a significant case at Finsbury Park where they attempted to prosecute someone who had not committed an offence at that point. As a result, there are now 'impossible to miss' instructions detailing the validation process at that station.

 

What is the current state of play with you and FCC? I seriously suggest you get a TRIM Journey Status Report from TfL's Oyster Helpline as you will need it. I've been through a similar situation myself and through extensive research of the technical side of Oyster, found the JSR to be the most important instrument in proving my innocence. Unfortunately I don't have all the time in the world to assist until early February due to impending exams, although I will alert someone with a highly commendable knowledge of the Oyster system, who may be able to help further.

Edited January 12, 2012 by The Urbanite

[The Urbanite]

To the person who said that the card shows on records and there is no grey area - This is not true. I have a contactless bank card and it causes my card to throw an error when trying to be read and I've spoken to TFL who have no record of it showing on my Oyster even thuogh it's happened many times.

 

I don't understand. Are you saying that you have one of those Barclaycard Oystercards? Or that you have one of those contactless cards (I myself have one, very useful in McDs) and this is read by the validator instead of your Oyster. If it's the latter, why are you contacting TfL about it, instead of ensuring the cards are seperate and ensuring that you validate successfully?

 

Like I said, I don't understand.

[The Urbanite]

Further information:

 

1. I called TFL again, and obtained detailed logs, they again show that I did touchin, but this is where it gets interesting

 

2. It shows that I touched in on a platform validator (NOTE it is not on the platform, but where you would buy tickets)

 

3. It also showed I had paid MORE for my journey than I should have and they gave me a refund . Ironically I had been paying more for my journey for 3 years

 

Hence my intent was NOT not to travel without paying, nor was my intent not to touch in, nor did I forget to touch in, however I was still thrown off the train, and asked to pay a penalty. Surely this cannot be correct in any organisation. So why is their a discrepancy

 

Initially they thought it was because I touched in at the wrong place, problem is that elephant and castle and the tube station are two physical locations, hence its impossible to accidentally touch the wrong oyster machine. Then I was told that I may have touched in on an exit rather than a entry. Again problem here is that the tube has two separate locations for entry and exit, and my history shows I touched out at the tube, and then touched in again at elephant and castle platform validator (which they do not have on the tube). The problem may have arose from something called a 'continuation journey' which I do not understand, it either means I did not need to touchin at elephant and castle over-rail which is just plain dumb, since anyone not familiar with the route will always touch in and out at the two locations, which can be confirmed by the 100000 odd people who do this everyday, and hence are over paying without knowing about it.

 

Getting back to point, I had over-paid for my journey, I had touched in, which has now been confirmed, hence the readers did not show something or showed something incorrect, if that is the case however small they cannot use these for penalty fares unless the RPI understand the oyster system. Am awaiting for FCC to get back to me.

 

Danny

 

P.S I feel its a little unfair that ppl on this forum automatically assume that the user is always in the wrong. I am beginning to wonder how many ppl how this same journey have paid £20 and in fact more so that they did not goto court.

 

Not to worry, help is at hand. I do apologise if the first post I made in this thread sounded a little accusatory.

 

A continuation exit was a measure introduced to help people avoid being overcharged. It is intended for complex stations like Stratford, where it is very easy for people to encounter Oyster readers when changing trains and validate when they're not supposed to. So someone travelling on the DLR from say Canary Wharf, may well travel to Stratford and touch out on the standing validators by the DLR platform. They then go to the gateline to exit the station and again, touch out. When an "unnecessary" validation is cancelled out by a subsequent validation which is deemed to be the intended destination point, it's known as a continuation exit.

 

It's not limited to complex interchange stations. Imagine you are travelling from Oxford Circus Underground to Alexandra Palace via Finsbury Park. You touch in at OC. Naturally, you touch out on the Underground reader at Finsbury Park. When you go up to surface level, you touch in on the NR platform. The validator reads "exit." This is a continuation exit to prevent people mistakenly validating twice from being overcharged. Now, you board a train to Alexandra Palace. When you touch out at Alexandra Palace, the reader will again say "exit." This is another example of a continuation exit. You would then have been charged the correct fare between Oxford Circus and Alexandra Palace.

 

There was a serious issue with this. An FCC RPI checking you after Finsbury Park will only see that you touched in at Oxford Circus and finished your journey at Finsbury Park, because of the continuation exit. You are thus automatically commiting a Byelaw offence and if you refuse a Penalty Fare, an RPI will claim that you are trying to avoid paying the fare. This happened to somebody and FCC initiated the prosecution process. However, with some heavy intervention from the owner of http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/ , FCC were forced to drop the case. But, the Oyster technicians at TfL tried their best in this tricky situation. The arrangement ensured a huge amount of commuters did not suffer from incomplete journeys for making the natural mistake of validating twice. At the same time, those changing from LU - NR were technically travelling illegitimately, but when touching out at their destination, were charged correctly. This relied on FCC RPIs knowing the situation and/or applying common sense. One, or the other, or both did not apply in reality unfortunately. I think the situation has now been "improved." This being the utterly bizarre installment of barriers at the top of the steps on the platform meaning that OSIs are now possible. There are also signs which you cannot miss which tell you when you should validate.

 

 

Now, Elephant and Castle. As I suspected at the beginning of post #16, this is an Out of Station Interchange issue (shivers.) Long story short, an OSI links two seperate journeys into one journey. So Oxford Circus - Elephant LU and Elephant NR - Streatham becomes Oxford Circus to Streatham for fares and validity rules purposes. The reason why there is a problem at Elephant and Castle is because there are no barriers on the NR station, only standing validators. It appears that there is a technical anomaly here which I won't go into. Suffice to say, when you touched in at Elephant NR, the reader read "exit." EPH is not a complex station so I can't presently work out why there's a continuation exit within the station. Anyway, as with the above, technically you are in breach of Byelaw 18(2). The RPI's Oyster reader will show Oxford Circus - Elephant and Castle LU as the last action. There will most certainly be no acknowledgement on the handheld reader of a validation at Elephant and Castle NR because it's configured as a continuation exit. Although this is a Byelaw breach, you have fulfilled every single responsibliltiy required of you by validating correctly. Therefore, they have no case against you.

 

You have not been overcharged for the last 3 years. When you get to Streatham, you will have been charged the correct TubeTrain fare from Oxford Circus* to Streatham. Once again, the RPIs are supposed to know that passengers travelling from the Underground may appear to have not touched in. Owing to the possibility of people completing a tube journey then travelling on FCC with no intention of touching in or out, they are likely to come down on you like a tonne of bricks. I will repeat that if you touched in at Elephant and Castle NR, it will not have showed up on the handheld reader and it will not show on any of the conventional Oyster history statements. However, it will show on a Trim Journey Status Report, which you need to get from TfL ASAP. Furthermore, you must continue to touch in at EPH in future. I know it might seem pointless, but trust me on that one.

 

The Oyster technicians at TfL are ingenious. I guarantee that they know about this already and will have advised the helpline staff. Trust me, they've done their best (although I'm perplexed at to why EPH requires internal continuation exits given it's almost impossible to 'accidentally' go to the NR station) it only requires FCC's RPIs to practice giving the benefit of the doubt, but..... I will repeat that through circumstances entirely out of your control, you're in breach of the Byelaws. However, you have fulfilled every single responsibility required of you. Do not expect an RPI or prosecution manager to understand Oyster to the degree I've explained above. You need the evidence from TfL (TRIM Journey Status Report) and written confirmation, which it appears you already have, explaining their technical error.

 

*Sorry, I don't know where you started your journey so I keep saying Oxford Circus. I don't expect you to know about OSIs or realise the significance of your preceding tube journey but believe me, it all makes sense to me now.

 

P.S We don't all assume the worst!

 

P.P.S An actual reproduction of your journey may well produce a slight variation on my theory above. There's a possibility that touching in at Elephant NR will actually show that you did Oxford Circus - Elephant NR, which has a different price and validity than the LU route.

 

P.P.P.S Don't worry if not a word of the above made any sense to you. All you need to know is that you need that TRIM JSR. Get that, then we can take it from there.

 

P.P.P.P.S You have my deepest sympathies for having to negotiate that lurid shopping centre every day. It seems to have missed a couple of decades of technological advances.

Edited January 12, 2012 by The Urbanite

[DJonny]

A v interesting post!

 

Essentially FCC are threatening to prosecute someone with a valid ticket over what is a known fault with the oyster system.

 

The problem is trying to rely upon inspectors' knowledge and common sense - often they don't have much

[andydd]

Urbanite.

 

Thanks for that..very interesting. I was aware of the touch out twice syndrome too but didnt know that there were measures in place to try and overcome it.

 

I was thinking of Staford too, I sometimes arrive there by train and used to swipe out on a platform reader and then for example swipe in again at the gates for the jubilee line..however the gates at the jubilee line have now been removed so its now not needed to swipe either in or out, just a final swipe out when exiting he jubilee line..confused !?...yep..so its no wonder that many people are 'caught' without valid oysters but they habve genuinelly made an honest mistake..but its unclear as to how lenient TfL are..in my experience not at all.

 

Andy

[tiredTraveller]

Its something on the internet that some people think is a reliable source of reference.

 

and best served up with a pinch of salt half the time, otherwise we'd have a lot of dead celebrities on our hands. I'd put it in the 'good means of solving a pub argument between mates' category of information sources, rather than the 'encyclopaedia' pile. Still useful for looking up the odd thing quickly if you appreciate it for what it is.

[MikeWh]

Hi,

 

Now a recent question on my Oyster site begins to make a lot more sense. If Elephant & Castle NR really is set to act as a continuation exit then it has happened fairly recently because it wasn't listed on the response to a FOI request I made to TfL last year. However, things do change, although I'm struggling to understand quite what issue a continuation exit might solve there.

 

I will attempt to visit Elephant & Castle in the next few days to investigate what is happening there. In the meantime, please could the OP post a bit more detail about their journey, especially how much they've been charged and how much TfL think they ought to have been charged.

[The Urbanite]

Elephant & Castle is very local to me. It's impossible to "accidentally" validate at the NR station after making an Underground journey. Coming out of the tube station, you will not come across any NR validators unless you are specifically going to the NR station to travel.

 

I have one theory. People may have travelled from say, Loughborough Junction/Denmark Hill and all points south with a paper ticket to Elephant and Castle. They then "touch in" at Elephant and Castle NR, walk to the LU station and touch in again before travelling to their destination via the Underground.

 

A continuation entry configuration ensures that such people will not be charged a maximum Exit Charge at Elephant and Castle NR plus a single from Elephant LU to their destination. Instead, they just pay for the LU journey.

 

This is an example where a continuation arrangement is useful for travellers going in one direction and a potential hindrance for anyone and everyone going in the opposite direction.

 

They need to leave the OSI in place and if technically feasible, remove any continuation arrangment for travellers transfering in the LU - NR direction only. With the OSI in place, this should not affect the price of travelling onward to places like Streatham.

 

The only difference I forsee is the reading on the handheld reader. With the continuation arrangement, it will show a completed Oxford Circus - Elephant & Castle LU journey only. Without it, it will show an open journey which started at Oxford Circus and nothing else. Either way, no acknowledgement will be made of touching in at Elephant & Castle NR as from my experience, the handheld readers have poor support for recognising OSI interchanges.

Edited January 12, 2012 by The Urbanite

[dan2011]

I'm fully conversant with the issues surrounding OSIs/continuation validations and can sympathise, perhaps even empathise with your situation. FCC are already well aware of the potential for problems as there was a significant case at Finsbury Park where they attempted to prosecute someone who had not committed an offence at that point. As a result, there are now 'impossible to miss' instructions detailing the validation process at that station.

 

What is the current state of play with you and FCC? I seriously suggest you get a TRIM Journey Status Report from TfL's Oyster Helpline as you will need it. I've been through a similar situation myself and through extensive research of the technical side of Oyster, found the JSR to be the most important instrument in proving my innocence. Unfortunately I don't have all the time in the world to assist until early February due to impending exams, although I will alert someone with a highly commendable knowledge of the Oyster system, who may be able to help further.

 

 

What is a JSR. Also the TRIM report is this what they send you when you ask for journey report in pdf or is this something else

 

Danny

[dan2011]

Not to worry, help is at hand. I do apologise if the first post I made in this thread sounded a little accusatory.

 

A continuation exit was a measure introduced to help people avoid being overcharged. It is intended for complex stations like Stratford, where it is very easy for people to encounter Oyster readers when changing trains and validate when they're not supposed to. So someone travelling on the DLR from say Canary Wharf, may well travel to Stratford and touch out on the standing validators by the DLR platform. They then go to the gateline to exit the station and again, touch out. When an "unnecessary" validation is cancelled out by a subsequent validation which is deemed to be the intended destination point, it's known as a continuation exit.

 

It's not limited to complex interchange stations. Imagine you are travelling from Oxford Circus Underground to Alexandra Palace via Finsbury Park. You touch in at OC. Naturally, you touch out on the Underground reader at Finsbury Park. When you go up to surface level, you touch in on the NR platform. The validator reads "exit." This is a continuation exit to prevent people mistakenly validating twice from being overcharged. Now, you board a train to Alexandra Palace. When you touch out at Alexandra Palace, the reader will again say "exit." This is another example of a continuation exit. You would then have been charged the correct fare between Oxford Circus and Alexandra Palace.

 

There was a serious issue with this. An FCC RPI checking you after Finsbury Park will only see that you touched in at Oxford Circus and finished your journey at Finsbury Park, because of the continuation exit. You are thus automatically commiting a Byelaw offence and if you refuse a Penalty Fare, an RPI will claim that you are trying to avoid paying the fare. This happened to somebody and FCC initiated the prosecution process. However, with some heavy intervention from the owner of [removed link] , FCC were forced to drop the case. But, the Oyster technicians at TfL tried their best in this tricky situation. The arrangement ensured a huge amount of commuters did not suffer from incomplete journeys for making the natural mistake of validating twice. At the same time, those changing from LU - NR were technically travelling illegitimately, but when touching out at their destination, were charged correctly. This relied on FCC RPIs knowing the situation and/or applying common sense. One, or the other, or both did not apply in reality unfortunately. I think the situation has now been "improved." This being the utterly bizarre installment of barriers at the top of the steps on the platform meaning that OSIs are now possible. There are also signs which you cannot miss which tell you when you should validate.

 

 

Now, Elephant and Castle. As I suspected at the beginning of post #16, this is an Out of Station Interchange issue (shivers.) Long story short, an OSI links two seperate journeys into one journey. So Oxford Circus - Elephant LU and Elephant NR - Streatham becomes Oxford Circus to Streatham for fares and validity rules purposes. The reason why there is a problem at Elephant and Castle is because there are no barriers on the NR station, only standing validators. It appears that there is a technical anomaly here which I won't go into. Suffice to say, when you touched in at Elephant NR, the reader read "exit." EPH is not a complex station so I can't presently work out why there's a continuation exit within the station. Anyway, as with the above, technically you are in breach of Byelaw 18(2). The RPI's Oyster reader will show Oxford Circus - Elephant and Castle LU as the last action. There will most certainly be no acknowledgement on the handheld reader of a validation at Elephant and Castle NR because it's configured as a continuation exit. Although this is a Byelaw breach, you have fulfilled every single responsibliltiy required of you by validating correctly. Therefore, they have no case against you.

 

You have not been overcharged for the last 3 years. When you get to Streatham, you will have been charged the correct TubeTrain fare from Oxford Circus* to Streatham. Once again, the RPIs are supposed to know that passengers travelling from the Underground may appear to have not touched in. Owing to the possibility of people completing a tube journey then travelling on FCC with no intention of touching in or out, they are likely to come down on you like a tonne of bricks. I will repeat that if you touched in at Elephant and Castle NR, it will not have showed up on the handheld reader and it will not show on any of the conventional Oyster history statements. However, it will show on a Trim Journey Status Report, which you need to get from TfL ASAP. Furthermore, you must continue to touch in at EPH in future. I know it might seem pointless, but trust me on that one.

 

The Oyster technicians at TfL are ingenious. I guarantee that they know about this already and will have advised the helpline staff. Trust me, they've done their best (although I'm perplexed at to why EPH requires internal continuation exits given it's almost impossible to 'accidentally' go to the NR station) it only requires FCC's RPIs to practice giving the benefit of the doubt, but..... I will repeat that through circumstances entirely out of your control, you're in breach of the Byelaws. However, you have fulfilled every single responsibility required of you. Do not expect an RPI or prosecution manager to understand Oyster to the degree I've explained above. You need the evidence from TfL (TRIM Journey Status Report) and written confirmation, which it appears you already have, explaining their technical error.

 

*Sorry, I don't know where you started your journey so I keep saying Oxford Circus. I don't expect you to know about OSIs or realise the significance of your preceding tube journey but believe me, it all makes sense to me now.

 

P.S We don't all assume the worst!

 

P.P.S An actual reproduction of your journey may well produce a slight variation on my theory above. There's a possibility that touching in at Elephant NR will actually show that you did Oxford Circus - Elephant NR, which has a different price and validity than the LU route.

 

P.P.P.S Don't worry if not a word of the above made any sense to you. All you need to know is that you need that TRIM JSR. Get that, then we can take it from there.

 

P.P.P.P.S You have my deepest sympathies for having to negotiate that lurid shopping centre every day. It seems to have missed a couple of decades of technological advances.

 

Thankyou very very very much for this. Let me explain my entire journey so that the whole picture is clear

 

1. I started out at Mitcham Eastfields and traveled to Elephant and castle (NR)

 

2. I then left the NR station (please note the NR station AND the tube station are two physical entities separated by 5-8 minutes of walk, it is impossible to confuse any entry and exit points between the two

 

3. I then touched in at Elephant and Castle tube station (within the tube station at Elephant and Castle the entry and exit for the tube again are two separate physcial places again impossible to confuse)

 

4. I then traveled to Marylebone, and touched out

 

5. I then did the return journey, touched in at marylebone

 

6. I then Touched out at the exit at the Elephant and Castle tube station

 

7. I then walked up the ramp across the shopping center and entered NR, at the bottom of the steps there is a Oyster touch point which I touched.

 

8. Now on this journey I was asked for my Oyster, told I had NOT touched in (note: not that I had touched in incorrectly but that I had NOT touched). At this point address verification happened which again they could not do, and they hauled me off. After telling me to pay £20 for not touching in.

 

My print out from the tube station shows all these journeys and me being billed £4.60 for touching IN at elephant and castle NR. I then obtained the journey logs from TFL also emailed to me, which again showed that I had been billed for touching IN at elephant and castle platform validator and being charged £4.60. So I would have been billed correctly if I had actually got to the other end .

 

Also my point if if the Oyster machine I touched out in at was the wrong one, why did it bill me, and why did it not just flash an orange light ?

 

Thankyou again for all your help, do you have the contact details of the guy at oyster rail.

 

Danny

[MikeWh]

Thankyou very very very much for this. Let me explain my entire journey so that the whole picture is clear

 

1. I started out at Mitcham Eastfields and traveled to Elephant and castle (NR) Can you confirm that you touched in?

 

2. I then left the NR station (please note the NR station AND the tube station are two physical entities separated by 5-8 minutes of walk, it is impossible to confuse any entry and exit points between the two Can you confirm that you touched out? And where?

 

3. I then touched in at Elephant and Castle tube station (within the tube station at Elephant and Castle the entry and exit for the tube again are two separate physcial places again impossible to confuse)

 

4. I then traveled to Marylebone, and touched out

 

5. I then did the return journey, touched in at marylebone

 

6. I then Touched out at the exit at the Elephant and Castle tube station

 

7. I then walked up the ramp across the shopping center and entered NR, at the bottom of the steps there is a Oyster touch point which I touched.

 

8. Now on this journey I was asked for my Oyster, told I had NOT touched in (note: not that I had touched in incorrectly but that I had NOT touched). At this point address verification happened which again they could not do, and they hauled me off. After telling me to pay £20 for not touching in.

 

My print out from the tube station shows all these journeys and me being billed £4.60 for touching IN at elephant and castle NR. I then obtained the journey logs from TFL also emailed to me, which again showed that I had been billed for touching IN at elephant and castle platform validator and being charged £4.60. So I would have been billed correctly if I had actually got to the other end .

 

Also my point if if the Oyster machine I touched out in at was the wrong one, why did it bill me, and why did it not just flash an orange light ?

 

Thankyou again for all your help, do you have the contact details of the guy at oyster rail.

 

Danny

The guy at oyster rail would be me! Did you post as 'John' on my site?

 

If you can also answer my question above about what TfL think you should be being charged and what you are being charged when you make the journey normally, I would be grateful. Even better, can you scan and post the printout from the tube station?

 

Regards

Mike.