employment issues? need help fast.

[BobTooU]

Hi diva1987

At the Appeal your version of events is important. At a Tribunal it is lessimportant. A Tribunal is all about 'was the process they took you throughfair'. Unfortunately its not about whether you are guilty or not (but this doesaffect compensation). Sounds daft I know! Effectively if they accuse you, backit up, provide evidence, and take you through the procedures correctly, youwill struggle at any Tribunal. However, if they have not allowed you a fairprocess - Breached their own Disciplinary Policy, or the Acas Principles - thenyou have some leverage. If they did not provide you with witness statements butmade reference to the statements, this to me is unfair and you would have acase (seek legal advice, CAB, etc. to confirm).

If an employee is dismissed without the employer following this statutory procedure, and makes a claim to an employment tribunal, providing they have the necessary qualifying service and providing they are not prevented from claiming unfair dismissal by virtue of their age, the dismissal will automatically be ruled unfair. The statutory procedure is a minimum requirement and even where the relevant procedure is followed the dismissal may still be unfair if the employer has not acted reasonably in all the circumstances.

A

cas CODE OF PRACTICE 1 – DISCIPLINARY AND GRIEVANCE PROCEDURE pg6 sec.6

BobTooU

[diva1987]

hi, could you please tell me what i have to put in the letter of appeal. do i have to say why i am appealing it. also i do qualify for legal aid, how do i go about taking them to a tribunal when i have my legal aid. thanks

[honeybee13]

hi, could you please tell me what i have to put in the letter of appeal. do i have to say why i am appealing it.

 

Bob gave you some ideas on this in post #24.

 

also i do qualify for legal aid, how do i go about taking them to a tribunal when i have my legal aid. thanks

 

Hello again. A couple of people have suggested you speak to ACAS and I think it would help you. Have you managed to contact them?

 

To start an ET claim, you need to submit an ET1 form. There should be details about this on the ACAS, directgov or Tribunals Service websites.

 

Do you have a lawyer in mind? It might be worth speaking to the local CAB who may be able to give you more advice and should also have contact with employment lawyers where you live.

 

My best, HB

[diva1987]

hi, im just writing my letter of appeal. can anyone tell me if ive missed something which i need to put in.

 

 

I am writing in relation to the decision to dismiss me from employment, I feel I have sufficient evidence to prove these allegations to be untrue. I stated this evidence at the disciplinary hearing but I was still dismissed. I have been instructed by my legal advisor to write to you appealing the decision. I wasn’t given witness statements but they was reffered to in the disciplinary which I think is unfair. I also wasn’t given dates for the alleged offences so was unable to defend myself fairly, again this was mentioned at the disciplinary. I feel I do have evidence to go to a full employment tribunal and this will be my next step to prove these allegations to be untrue. I also have witness statements which were dismissed as lies

[BobTooU]

Hi diva

 

Where the witness statements dismissed as 'lies' or none factual? There is a difference, proving someone has lied against proving what they said was not actual fact is much more difficult. i.e. reason for lying? against 'thats not actually correct'. But if you can prove they have lied! Very damning against the other party at a tribunal.

My union rep. did my application for Appeal. Very brief, you need youn reason/s. What you have is ok. I would recommend you bullet your reasons, mainly so you can refer to each point. This makes things organised and brief.

You should have a letter confirming their Hearing decision, giving their reason you were dismissed. In your Appeal Hearing you need to attack and disprove their reason/s in the letter. Try not to digress. This is the reason they say was bad enough to dismiss you. Look at that reason and their evidence they have used and discredit this with your evidence, not hearsay, or 'this is what happened' but actual hard evidence and/or witnesses. This all helps at a later Tribunal. It will mean the Tribunal will be aware that the evidence was in place for them to find a just outcome, but they have chosen to ignore it. All adds up in the end. I have found that Appeals tend to be a waste of time and energy in the short term because they rarely change the earlier verdict. But long term they prove invaluable.

Good luck, head up, and look forward.

BobbTooU

[diva1987]

Just spoke to acas, apparently they can dismiss me without solid proof but as long as they have reasonable belief then thay can do it. with one statement indicating he was told i had taken something? surely this is not enough proof if the people who said it arent willing to give statements.

[diva1987]

I have had my appeal and gave all my relevant information ie. not giving witness statements which they relied on and made the decision from, there reply was they wished to be kept confidential. the only witness never saw anything only was told by other people but no statements have been made by them, diregarding my witness statements as dishonesty, only letting me speak to my witnesses after i brought it up in the first discaplinary, not letting me cross examine the one and only witness in my discaplinary, not giving me dates for the alleged offences, there reply was they might give them at a later date for confidentiality reasons, i said i should have had them before any discaplinary went aheah so i could fully prepare my arguement. they made no reply to this. one thing got brought up in the discaplinary but didnt get brought up in the appeal, an allegation got brought up in the appeal that didnt get brought up in the discaplinary, i said this is the first ive heard about this so not willing to make any comment. they made no reply/. does this sound like a good case seing as its the 2nd time in 1 year i have tried to be sacked. they couldnt get rid of me before so have made up a serious allegation so there is no way i could not be sacked. any ideas.

[stu007]

Hi

 

 

1. You were not given the witness statements due to confidentiality.

2. You were refused the opportunity to have the witness present at the hearings so you could cross examine due to confidentiality.

3. Then at your Appeal they enter new evidence at the appeal that had no bearing on that Appeal Hearing.

 

So how are you meant to prepare a defence and defend yourself against these allegations.

[diva1987]

exactly what I thought. I also wasnt given any dates or times for the alleged offences and the only date i did get i have witnesses to say it wasnt that day so in fact lies are being told to stitch me up but they havent taken any of this into consideration and they still have sacked me for "dishonesty".

[stu007]

Hi

 

Ensure you get a copy of the minuted appeal hearing and ensure that the allegation they brought up is on this as it was not relevant to the appeal.

[BobTooU]

Hi diva

Just reading parts of your thread. I have questioned the methods used in Hearings before. Fact is, it is a kangaroo court, but it’s the only thing wehave and they have the law on their side, at this stage!

Its based on a 'Balance of Probability' the balance being: we (the employer)withhold information until the eleventh hour; dismiss evidence that we considerirrelevant; put the employee under tremendous pressure, hoping they will moveon before the Hearing; not allow you to talk to anyone, thus defend yourself properly before the Hearing; etc. etc. etc. it is corrupt! And legal.

But - this is not the case at a Tribunal. You have a fair process and theTribunal judges can see through an unfair process and dismissal. This is why somany employers settle before getting to the Tribunal stage. And because of thecost (if a private company, state employers tend to waste the tax payers’ moneyand settle the minute before the Tribunal having incurred tremendous costs).

The parking offence is against the rules so you have no real argument atTribunal here. Your argument should be based on consistency i.e. same orsimilar sanctions for same offence - was the sanction you received grossly unfair (over the top). What did they do when others were identified committing the same H&S breach? And fairness of the Disciplinary Process - withholding info. not allowing evidence. etc. There are obviously many other factors whichwill affect the Tribunal.

However, it is clear they wanted your wife out and they won't stop until they get their way. Heads and their governing bodies have the power to completely destroy people’s lives. They act as investigators, prosecutors,judge and jury, a disgraceful allowance of power which they often abuse.

My point is - act now for what you have to do later. What will the Tribunal need for you to succeed? Ask those questions. If you are going to Tribunal.

[stu007]

Hi

 

BobTooU - Spot On couldnt have put it a better way.

 

Diva did they at all give you a full explanation as to why witness statement and witness were keep confidential and under which company policy - if not write to them and request that information and a copy of the policy refering to this.

[diva1987]

I finally got a job today after i was sacked from my last job. (please read previous posts). I told the interviewer I was still working there and that i would leave if i got the job. obviously i dont need to do this because i was sacked a month ago. I work 16 and dont pay tax as i dont earn enough. my last employer hasnt sent my p45 and i woldnt want to give it to the new employer as its got a earlier leaving date. what can i do now?

[BazzaS]

I finally got a job today after i was sacked from my last job. (please read previous posts). I told the interviewer I was still working there and that i would leave if i got the job. obviously i dont need to do this because i was sacked a month ago. I work 16 and dont pay tax as i dont earn enough. my last employer hasnt sent my p45 and i woldnt want to give it to the new employer as its got a earlier leaving date. what can i do now?

 

These are 2 separate P45 issues, the first being "If I have a P45, but I don't want my new employer to see it", and the second issue being "I don't have a P45".

For the first, if you had a P45, there is a section titled "to the employee", which tells you you can send it to the tax office rather than your new employer if you don't want your new employer to see it, but you may pay too much tax for a while while they play 'catch up' with the paperwork.

See http://www.p45.co.uk/images/art/p45_example.gif

 

Clearly, you can't do this if you don't have a P45, but where you don't have a P45, you instead complete a P46 form with your new employer.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/p46.pdf

 

You are better off ticking box A than box B than box C, but only if you can do so truthfully : but from your posting it seems likely that you won't be able to tick Box A (as your posts suggest that you have worked this Tax year).

 

Edited to add : if you are able to tick box B truthfully (so, it's your only job and you don't have another job or pension, for example), then if you don't earn enough to pay tax, you shouldn't loose out by ticking box B rather than A.

(Box C means you have to pay tax on the "Emergency Rate", as saying you have another income might mean you are using your tax allowance on that job / income. Box B means you get your tax allowance, but only that month's worth, as they aren't sure [until they catch up with the paperwork] how much tax allowance from earlier in the year you might have used up or available, while Box A means you are saying you have the full allowance up to that date of the tax year still available if you haven't had any taxable income yet during that tax year)

Edited February 18, 2012 by BazzaS

[diva1987]

Shall I print and fill in this form myself and give to my new employer then? Do you think I should just say its been lost? is there anyway they can find out the actual date i left if they dont see the p45?

[BazzaS]

Shall I print and fill in this form myself and give to my new employer then? Do you think I should just say its been lost? is there anyway they can find out the actual date i left if they dont see the p45?

 

Ask your employer for a P46 to fill in. It isn't such an infrequent occurrence that they shouldn't have them.

If they don't have them, or claim not to know they exist, then print one yourself, but it may be trickier than getting one from them - it needs to have "your bit" on one side, and the employer's bit on the other side of the same sheet. Otherwise, see if you can get a blank P46 from any employer or tax office - thet aren't prefilled with the employer's details.

 

18 years ago I started my first full time permanent job post full-time education, with an employer renowned for putting graduate employees's on "emergency" tax codes, and letting the tax office sort it out, leaving the new employees overpaying tax for a few months in their first job. Shortly before starting I asked them for a P46, and they claimed not to know they existed.

 

One of my part time jobs (in preceding tax years, for a different employer) had been assisting with payroll, so whilst not an expert, I knew of P45's, P46's and P38(S)'s.

First day of the new job in August, I took 20+ blank P46's with me (kindly supplied by my former payroll employer), and all the graduate new starters who hadn't worked that Tax Year ticked box A and went straight onto the correct tax code, together with 5 months accrued tax allowance meaning our 1st pay packets were way more healthy than if we'd been on 0BRX, the 'emergency tax code'.

Out of 'fairness' to the new employer, I started off by asking the chap from payroll "joining" us to their payroll system that morning for a P46, yet he again denied they existed : when I produced the sheaf of 20+ and said "Good thing I've brought a few with me, then" ( or similar), I thought I heard grinding of teeth

It did start me off on a good footing with my fellow new starters, though - we'd all been warned by our predecessors about the fact we'd be over-paying while they sorted out our tax codes.

 

Regarding your leaving date from your previous job, given you say you don't earn enough to pay tax, I suspect your best way forward is to use a P46, if you get a P45 from your last employer send it to your tax office not your new employer.

 

If you are able to get the issue with your previous employer sorted (especially if an ET finds you were unfairly dismissed) then come clean with your new employer. Find a manager you get on with, give them a potted summary, if able stress that you never lied about a leaving date, but just didn't correct a wrong assumption by the new employer because you were embarrassed at having been falsely accused, and wanted to clear your name first.

You might choose to just "let sleeping dogs lie", but then might worry that it "all comes out" one day. If you are able to "come clean", even if that manager doesn't do anything with the info, it can't be used as a "hold over you" in the future - so, once you've "come clean", you won't have to worry about it!

Edited to add : I've just noticed that you did fib, rather than leave them with a wrong assumption. So, you are going to have to make a judgement call later : hope no one notices (they probably won't but sometimes "things just come out"), or 'fess up' to a boss you get on with once you've been there a while, especially if you have worked hard to get a good reputation, and win any case for unfair dismissal against your prior employer.

Edited February 18, 2012 by BazzaS

[diva1987]

I think im going to say my last employer has sent it through the post but it hasnt turned up, if I still take my last employer to tribnual, any meeting or tribunal hearings that i will have to have, does my last employer have to work round my new working hours, obviously they are the reason i am at a new job so will they have to plan anty meetings when im not working?

[diva1987]

Oh god where do I start? Well when I applied for the job I have currently been offered I put on my CV 2 references. 1 being the owner of the job I was sacked from and 1 being my immediate supervisor. The second reference believes i was wrongly sacked and the other obviously being the one who sacked me. Stupid I know but the new employer has asked if they can contact them I agreed then the almighty dread followed. I know i will have 1 good reference but the other will probably say the dates i worked which is going to say ik left a month earlier than what i said in the interview. How the hell am i going to get out of this one. I have no other references as this was my first job since leaving school and i had it for 8 years. could i come to an agreement with my former employer as i belive she knows i wasnt lying but has obviously sided with her family. please help. I start my new job tommoro and am so worried.

[diva1987]

Does anyone think if I say reference A has asked they be contacted by post and reference B has asked to be contacted by phone. I am hoping they wont want to go to the effort of writing the letter and agree to the phone one where I know i will get a good reference. How many references do small companies like to have. do most employers get references?

[diva1987]

or maybe i could change my reference? What reasons cou;ld i give for changing my reference?

[diva1987]

Hi, I was told on the 2nd of february that i had to give reasons why i thought the discaplinary was undfair and why i belived i was being bullied by a memeber of staff. I have been very sick over the past couple of weeks and have not been able to get the letter to them. its now been over a week and im facing the possiblity that ive left it too late to send the letter and i now wont be able to appeal the descision. Does an employer have to show a bit of consideration about the letter being late if they are infact the root cause of the severe worry and depression? can i still go to tribunal if i didnt appeal within the right time frame and was then refused the appeal? can i have a tribunal without appealing there discaplinary action. please help!!!