No Refund without return of goods

[perplexity]

... But if they give you too much change how many people would be honest enough to return it????

 

 

According to the Distance Selling Regulations, Section 17(4)

 

The consumer shall not be under any duty to deliver the goods except at his own premises and in pursuance of a request in writing, or in another durable medium available and accessible to the consumer, from the supplier and given to the consumer either before, or at the time when, the goods are collected from those premises.

So if you don't trust a buyer to return the goods, that is what to do, collect the goods in person or send your own courier..

 

Problem solved.

 

[perplexity]

i also had a refund issue with some fashion items. they requested i send back the items, and they will refund in 3 days. i did sent the stuff back without having to pay for postage, and as promised they refunded my money. i don't really understand why you won't just send the tent, and receive your money back as they say.

 

 

Put the same question to the seller: Why don't they send a tent before the buyer has to pay? See what they have to say.

 

I have paid for thousands of items online, over the years, literally, and there were only ever two or three occasions where the sellers sent the goods before I paid, and those were all from Germany, not the UK.

 

When a seller sends the goods to be paid for on inspection, when the buyer is satisfied, it is fair enough for the seller to expect the same, to see the goods before the refund is made.

 

In the mean time, when faulty goods are returned, the inference is that the goods were not correctly described, which is a strict liability criminal offence. If you make it a habit to trust a criminal, good for you.

 

There are some with more sense than that.

 

[Saz1]

I think it is safe to send an item back and the company will make you a refund afterwards, or you can go to you credit card provider and they will tell you what to do.

[dantheaxeman]

The distance selling regulations form part of the contract, if a seller is not willing to give you your unconditional refund. then who's to say what other stuff they will get up to? restocking fee's etc. These sellers are in business to take a share of a £44 billion pound market, sometimes they have to take a hit. Consumers are protected specifically so they can go to work and make money to spend on other stuff rather than spending time making small claims in court

[locutus]

This wasn't a "cooling off period" return, it was faulty.

 

If it was being returned under the cooling off period, Campingworld would not have to refund postage.

 

Being returned as faulty, Campingworld must pay the postage, but are entitled to inspect the goods.

 

Unfortunatly we consumers cannot pick both

[dantheaxeman]

Distance selling regs and soga are not mutually exclusive!! SOGA gave him a reason to reject the goods, DSR gave the performance criteria DSR reg 14

 

(6) Paragraph (5) shall not apply where—

(a)the consumer cancels in circumstances where he has the right to reject the goods under a term of the contract, including a term implied by virtue of any enactment

[locutus]

Still, returning under the cooling off period provided by the distance selling regulations act, the seller does not have to refund postage. The only exception is if the seller misses the time frame that they should've delivered the goods. In that instance postage should be refunded.

 

If you receive something faulty, contact the seller, They should arrange a return of the item for them to inspect, then they must refund the full cost of the item and postage.

 

If you choose to return the item under the distance selling regulations, 1st the company is likely to say it was returned faulty and say it was not in the condition it was sent in, and 2nd they can charge postage.

[dantheaxeman]

The seller always has to refund the delivery postage its part of doing business. Returns postage is dependant on if they have stated in the terms and conditions that they supplied in a durable medium (many sellers have this on their web site which doesn't count), even if they do this is overridden if you have a valid reason to reject the goods (SOGA for example).

 

I don't know where "The only exception is if the seller misses the time frame that they should've delivered the goods. In that instance postage should be refunded." is from, could you direct me?

[perplexity]

Distance selling regs and soga are not mutually exclusive!!

 

According to the DSRs "the effect of a notice of cancellation is that the contract shall be treated as if it had not been made" and the Sale of Goods Act applies to a contract of sale..

 

The effect of a cancellation is therefore to forego the SOGA.

 

The exception to not having to refund the cost of returning goods is s.14(6)

 

(6) Paragraph (5) shall not apply where—

 

(a) the consumer cancels in circumstances where he has the right to reject the goods under a term of the contract, including a term implied by virtue of any enactment, or

 

(b) the term requiring the consumer to return any goods supplied if he cancels the contract is an “unfair term” within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999(1).

Edited September 29, 2011 by perplexity
link to s.14 added

[locutus]

I read it on the OFT's website... something like "a business guide to the distance selling regulations" a while ago... can't direct you exactly. It was training for work so was about 3 years ago IIRC.

[JuryMan77]

Thanks Martin,

 

Just to confirm that our terms of business and trading more than fully comply with all aspects of both the Sales of Goods Act and also Distance Selling Regulations.

 

In the case in question the customer did not wish to cancel, or notify us of his intention to cancel, under the Distance Selling Regulations and within the required timeframe. Instead he wished to pursue a fault claim which given the product was indeed faulty was only fair. Unfortunately we are duly bound by our supplier agreements and a certain amount of common sense to collect, inspect and confirm any notified faults for legitimacy so that we can authorise a replacement or repair.

 

Many thanks,

 

Michael

 

After a bad experience with camping world, I dug about here and found this thread, so excuse the thread revival.

 

Interesting you should say the customer did not wish to cancel - his original post (above) clearly states that he requested a full refund within 3 days of receiving the goods - within the required DSR timeframe.

 

Your agreements with your suppliers are of no relevance to us, the consumer. What you do or don't do after a return has been organised is not "our problem". The law requires a refund, if requested, within 7 days, for any reason. Fault, change of mind, not the right size, whatever. However, IF it's faulty, you need to refund the postage for the return as well as the original postage costs outbound. The customer should be returned to the same state as he was prior to the faulty item being purchased, with no loss because of your (or your suppliers) error.

[MARTIN3030]

Thanks for those who have reported am taking a look.

[MARTIN3030]

After a bad experience with camping world, I dug about here and found this thread, so excuse the thread revival.

 

Interesting you should say the customer did not wish to cancel - his original post (above) clearly states that he requested a full refund within 3 days of receiving the goods - within the required DSR timeframe.

 

Your agreements with your suppliers are of no relevance to us, the consumer. What you do or don't do after a return has been organised is not "our problem". The law requires a refund, if requested, within 7 days, for any reason. Fault, change of mind, not the right size, whatever. However, IF it's faulty, you need to refund the postage for the return as well as the original postage costs outbound. The customer should be returned to the same state as he was prior to the faulty item being purchased, with no loss because of your (or your suppliers) error.

 

Could you expand on your own issues ?

[MASAMP8]

Well just to let you know finally i got my refund.

My advise to anybody reading this thread would be to avoid like the plague .... I eventually went to a reputable camping company and had excellent service and the quality of the goods on sale are far superior and service is excellent.

And what these people do not seem to be able to take in is the damage in reputation they cause by the actions they take.

Not only did they loose my custom .. which to date is around £1000.00 but also people who i have recommended to the now reputable company we use and the camping fraternity all share experiences.

The upshot of it is the lack of good customer service and obviously management skills has cost camping world money and its reputation.

So good work Camping world .... Keep it up.

[tanknia]

The distance selling regulations form part of the contract, if a seller is not willing to give you your unconditional refund. then who's to say what other stuff they will get up to? restocking fee's etc. These sellers are in business to take a share of a £44 billion pound market, sometimes they have to take a hit. Consumers are protected specifically so they can go to work and make money to spend on other stuff rather than spending time making small claims in court

 

 

They do charge a restocking fee even though dsr clearly states that they cannot

[Guest CAMPINGWORLD]

Thank you all for your comments so far - it is on forums like this where we gain the best insight into consumer opinion, and it is through feedback like this that we are able to modify practises moving forward.

 

To go back to the information in the post I would like to clarify again that at Camping World we offer an open, honest and transparent returns policy wheteher it is simply unwanted, or for more problematic issues like warranty faults etc.

 

We always try to offer significantly over and above the minimum statutes set our in SOGA and the associated DSRs - this is why we offer a 7 days returns service and a full 12 month return policy for unwanted items. We also send out 'durable medium' details of the DSR cancellation policy as well as order information with each order.

 

In the case of the OP the customer received a faulty item and was simply refusing to let us collect it back for inspection. This is a relatively straightforward process and would have resulted in a quick replacement of refund had he followed our standard returns procedures. As a long established, reputable and secure retailer we can understand why some people may be cautious about shopping online but the fact that we had already delivered his original order in good faith is usually a good indicator of trust. Secondly, if customers are worried about shopping online we receommend using a credit card or PayPal to pay as these both offer full buyer protection, or even a pre-paid Mastercard which limits your exposure as well as providing purchase protection. However, our site is 100% secure and we believe we have one of the best reputations in the industry for outstanding customer service.

 

In terms of the details of both SOGA and DSRs, our in house returns policies always allow for a quicker resolution to any problem - be it replacement or refund - than these provide.

 

And finally, in response to your final poster we never charge a restocking fee for items returned to us.

 

If you have any comments of questions please do not hesitate to contact me on 01252 316 649

 

All the best,

 

Michael

[tanknia]

the following is in your terms and conditions yet below is the distance selling regulations which clearly over rides your t&c's,

Tents (and tent-like structures):

Tents must be sealed, factory packed and in an unused and re-saleable condition. We cannot sell unpacked tents as new and consequently we reserve the right to refuse any return of an unpacked tent at our discretion. Any unauthorised tent return may be refused with the sender being liable for any costs incurred in returning the tent back to them

How can I resell the goods as new if they have been opened

and tested by the customer?

3.59 The DSRs do not provide any general exception to the right to cancel

on this point. Unless one of the specific exceptions referred to above

at paragraph 3.38 applies, consumers can exercise their right to

cancel a contract and return the goods to you. The DSRs do not link

cancellation rights with a supplier’s ability to resell items as new

 

(the exceptions mentioned are perishables, personalised items etc.

[Guest CAMPINGWORLD]

This clause is written in as tents are by their very nature fragile, and unpacked tents cannot be easily determined to be 'as new' and free of damage/damp etc. If opened they need a thorough examination on return, so for the purposes of unwanted returns and DSR cancellations we - like all other camping retailers - require tents back unopened if cancelling as unwanted.

[sparx]

This clause is written in as tents are by their very nature fragile, and unpacked tents cannot be easily determined to be 'as new' and free of damage/damp etc. If opened they need a thorough examination on return, so for the purposes of unwanted returns and DSR cancellations we - like all other camping retailers - require tents back unopened if cancelling as unwanted.

 

But if i bought a tent, unpacked it, found that actually on inspection of the tent it was not how I had expected it (either from your description on your website or some other means), then you would not accept it back under the DSR's?

 

How is that not a breach of peoples consumer rights?

[Guest CAMPINGWORLD]

We have a number of policies designed to protect the consumer in these circumstances, without resorting to basic legislative rulings that offer minimal consumer protection where it is not already offered.

 

 

• Firstly, should any manufacturing fault be found with the item this is covered by warranty;
  
• We also offer a returns policy that allows 12 months from the date of purchase to return any item as unwanted;
  
• Finally, and on the point raised by sparx, if a product was to differ in any way from that advertised, we would accept full responsibility for misrepresentation when processing a return and the consumer can expect a full refund if required.
  

Further, our terms have been written mostly to protect you as the end consumer: a tent is an expensive luxury item, prone to damage when mistreated - no camping retailer could afford the time cost of checking these items fully (some 2 hours per tent for a full inspection, witha minimum of 2 staff, weather permitting) to ensure new tents really are as new and re-folded correctly. The alternative is to send to a store and sell off as ex-display.

 

As a consumer spending hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pounds on a new item you would not like or expect to receive a tent that had been pictched and struck by someone inexperienced, and maybe bundled into its bag without care. Small items may be lost; fibreglass poles may be unnoticeably cracked. If you take the analogy of a car - you would not buy a new car that's been run in by someone without first looking at a discount on the purchase price as you wouldn;t know how it had been driven.

 

The only sensible way of ensuring the new condition of a tent - as manufactured - is to require it to be returned unopened, and to mitigate any potential issues we have one of the broadest and most open returns policy not only in the camping sector, but in retail as a whole.

 

We pride ourself on our reputation both for customer service and camping knowledge, and in these straightened times we would not do well in business without listening to what our customers want. We provide high quality, brand name items at low prices to a discerning group of customewrs and we stand by our service both before, during and after a sale.

 

If there is anyone out there that has any specific problem with any part of our service relating to any experience or item purchased from Camping World either in store of online please feel free to contact me on michael @ campingworld . co . uk (spaces removed)

 

Kind Regards,

 

Michael Cloake

Business Development Manager

Camping World Group

[tanknia]

as regards to sparx question about you never actually gave a yes or no answer michael, so please do tell us- is it a yes or no

[Guest CAMPINGWORLD]

Hi Tanknia,

 

In short, it is a yes - we would generally accept it back under the DSRs.

 

After pro-active consultation with Trading Standards we have ammended our terms to clarify the point raised above and ensure we are operating to the correct standard.

 

It is worth noting that we have removed the reference to unpacked tents, but have applied a stipulation that allows for inspection of these items in a suitable indoor area, in a clean and dry environment. This will allow the user to minimise any wear and tear or dirt damaging the product, and help to maintain product quality standards for all customers

 

A link to our revised terms is available on our website (I am unable to link here)

 

All the best,

 

Michael

[markwild]

Send the tent back as it is most company policies refunds cannot be given without the return of the faulty good, however get the delivery driver to check and sign a document with the damage written down, that way you have proof that someone else has witnessed it.

Edited February 14, 2012 by markwild

[rossaa]

Posted in error on wrong thread, message removed.

Edited April 3, 2012 by rossaa

[MASAMP8]

Quote Thank you all for your comments so far - it is on forums like this where we gain the best insight into consumer opinion, and it is through feedback like this that we are able to modify practises moving forward.

 

Sounds like Camping Worlds really listening to its customers .... or should i say Ex customers ...

My advise would be don’t mess about with these clowns ..... serve them with notice ..... if they don’t comply small claims .... then go get a decent product at a decent supplier.