Have you signed a Bill of Sale? - Take These Steps to find out if Your Bill of Sale is Registered

[applecart]

NOTE THIS INFO IS OUT OF DATE

SEE THE LAST POST - DX SITETEAM

PREAMBLE:

 

There are a number of consumers that have loans secured by way of a Bill of Sale. As a consumer it is useful to know if your lender has complied with the relevant Laws as soon as possible....

 

The Bill of Sales Act 1878 and the Bill of Sales (Amended) Act 1882 are the relevant Acts to protect consumers and advise what a lender must do in order to rely on the Acts for protection - In most instances it is what the Lender does not do, or actions that the lender takes against you that the Law shows that they cannot do; that assists consumers overcome bad practices by some lenders and can work to protect consumers from unlawful possession of your motor vehicle.

 

GUIDANCE:

 

step 1: request the High Court Stamp Reference No. from the lender if you do not already know it.

 

step 2: write off to the High Court of Justice as shown below:

 

 

 

 

Your Name

Your Address

Post Code

 

Date

enforcement officer

Royal Court of Justice

Room E17

The Strand

London

WC2A 2LL

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

Re: Bill of Sale - Ref No: XXXXXXX

 

With reference to the above, I write to request a true copy of the registered Bill of Sale; details of which are below:

 

Debtors Name & Address:

 

(Input your name and address)

 

Lenders Name & Address:

 

(Input Lenders name and address)

 

Bill of Sale Ref No:

 

(Input the known reference number of the Bill of Sale - if you don't have it you will have to send a payment in the sum of £40 with this letter - if you know it, then you only have to send a payment of £5.00)

 

It is common knowledge that a Bill of Sale can be lodged with you and be done so as an 'out of time' registration; with this in mind, can you confirm whether the said Bill of Sale in this matter has been registered out of time; and if it has been, would you kindly advise if there has been any application made to rectify the registration.

 

I look forward to your early reply and enclose the sum of £xx.00 as necessary.

 

Yours sincerely

 

(sign your letter)

 

XXXXXXXX

 

NB: Post it recorded delivery and keep copy of your letter and copy of recorded delivery slip on file.

 

Step 3. Once you get the reply - if they confirm it is registered out of time and can confirm that no application to rectify has been made - then proceed to step 4.

 

Step 4. Check the Bill of Sale Acts of 1878 & 1882 - you will be looking for any sections within your copy of the Bill of Sale that does not comply with these Acts - note any variances or anything that does not comply. (the more you can find - the more chance you have of securing an order to throw it out)

 

Step 5. get in touch with a solicitor and instruct them to file for a declaration that the Bill of Sale is void/uneforceable.

 

The effect of these measures is that once a court declares the Bill of Sale void - then the 'security is void' - this means they cannot seize the vehicle.

 

Interestingly - it could also mean that your credit agreement is also unenforceable - this will depend on the terms and conditions within it and those found in your Bill of Sale.

 

You will only have to submit a payment in the sum of £5.00 (as at Nov 2010). If you cannot supply all of the detail above; you may have to pay as much as £40.00.

 

If you have a copy of you Bill of Sale on record; then the reference number will be shown on there - it will not be the same number as the lenders loan reference number - it may look something like: '0067910'

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

 

I am not a Solicitor, I do not offer legal advise nor intend to; but what I can advise is that I started off by taking the steps shown above and went on to secure a declaration that my Bill of Sale was unenforceable - (this is not to say or intended to portray that all Bills of Sale are unenforceable; only that, it does no consumer any harm in taking the necessary steps to ensure your agreement as secured by way of a bill of sale has been correctly administered within the Law)

 

Applecart

[OBWanBenoni]

Just to add to Apple's post.

 

I went in person to the Supreme Court and all I told them was the persons name and address who had taken the Bills of Sale.

 

I am an innocent purchaser of a vehicle which has a bill of sale on it.

 

They told me all the reference numbers and posted me copies of all the Bills of Sale

that this person had taken out and only charged me £5 a copy

- which was lucky as there were 10 of them!

 

If you go in person you only really need to know the persons name and address,

you don't need the reference number and as long as the BOS was placed on the vehicle since 2005

they can search their computer records for the details for you.

 

Pre 2005 and they are held in ledgers on the desk in the waiting room

and you can search them for free and they do show you the registration date of the BOS.

 

I think anything pre 2005 would now be out of life as they can only last 5 years?.

[ST220]

Fantastic post Apple,

 

Mods please make sticky!!

[applecart]

Fantastic post Apple,

 

Mods please make sticky!!

 

 

Thankyou ST220 : )

 

I'm hoping they make it a sticky too.... I want to help as many consumers as possible

 

Apple

[kittex]

might seem a bit late to reply on this one..

..but ..

.i have a bill of sale..

.the solicitor,s date is the correct date for the day i signed for the vehicle

,but when i applied to court for a copy..

..the date on the stamp is the day previously?

 

how can this be..?

i bought car on a monday

...but stamp for a sunday?

 

can this be done ?

 

because how did they know i was going to buy the car???

[emanevs]

Does anyone know:

 

1) What if the Bill of Sale is ok, but the credit agreement is unenforceable?

2) Is this an ineffective security??

 

Please can someone help, I am in court with the scumbags regarding this.....

[kittex]

how come you think the credit agreement isnt enforceable ?..have they already repossesed car ?

[emanevs]

1) The credit agreement is unenforceable due to bankruptcy

2) The credit agreement was signed by person 'A'

3) The bill of sale was witnessed by person 'A'

4) The sworn affidavit was signed and witnessed by their solicitor

5) The bill of sale was received on the 7th Day, but registered 13 days after date of bill of sale.

 

Any help with this would help lots as I am in Court with these xxxxxx now.

[kittex]

hi there..

..im not really an expert on this..

..but there should be a clause about bankruptcy.

 

i mean how are you suppose to pay if you have no money court should decide that one if your going bankrupt....

.....and normally they usually reposses car..

..has that happened?

 

as you know with the bill of sale they dont need a court order for repo....,,

,my advice would be to go to your local trading standards .

...usually have them in local council offices.

 

they looked over mine there and then and told me that it was legal even though the date didnt match...

...and it doesnt matter if who signed what ..

..i asked about that myself....

[emanevs]

it does matter who signed it......

 

because there is essentially no witnesses......

[kittex]

no one witnessed mine...

..the only person who signed mine was the car salesman and the solicitor...

.as long as it got legal stamp that seems to me all they care about.

...but like i say get trading standards to check it out..

...ive found that no matter what anyone tell you...

..you need confirmation face to face...

[emanevs]

i think i am correct....

 

cant say anymore.... to many guests!

[kittex]

good luck to you.....

[applecart]

Hi to New Posters and Welcome : )

 

This thread was essentially borne to give 'first steps'... is it possible for you both to create threads of your own?

 

In the meantime,

I would quickly advise both of you,

that all the answers to your questions are available within the Logbook loan threads

- I know it may be heavy reading

- but if you follow the threads

- you will get the answers you need

(tempted as I am to answer you both here

- I think it best you check the other threads or create your own)

 

Apple: )

[kittex]

Im sure you could answer us both.

..lol.

.but to be honest theres so much conflicting advice on here about.stuff.

..and its hard to make head or tail of it

....thats why i got other advice also....

 

....and yes i know some of the points i made arrnt there in full.

 

....im past caring about it all now..

 

.its made me be i,ll in the past through stress....

 

..so now i look at it like...

 

.its a debt.,

 

,,,,,no debt is worth making yourself i,ll over......

[davyatsea]

Brilliant post. Just trying to settle MM ove a few months, but they have point blank refused! Worried about car as they seem so heavy handed!

[Emma2013]

Just to add to Apple's post. I went in person to the Supreme Court and all I told them was the persons name and address who had taken the Bills of Sale. I am an innocent purchaser of a vehicle which has a bill of sale on it. They told me all the reference numbers and posted me copies of all the Bills of Sale that this person had taken out and only charged me £5 a copy - which was lucky as there were 10 of them!

 

If you go in person you only really need to know the persons name and address, you don't need the reference number and as long as the BOS was placed on the vehicle since 2005 they can search their computer records for the details for you. Pre 2005 and they are held in ledgers on the desk in the waiting room and you can search them for free and they do show you the registration date of the BOS. I think anything pre 2005 would now be out of life as they can only last 5 years?.

 

Hi I'm knew on here but have found myself in a similar situation,

were those 10 bills of sale the high court found all registered to the same vehicle an was that allowed.

 

Thanks any help appreciated.

[emanevs]

who long does a bill of sale last? is there any links to legislation??

[bljones65]

Hi Emma2013.

 

Did you find out whether the company could register 10 bills of sale on the same car?

[cagicorn]

Hi all,

I have been following the logbook loan threads on this forum for about a couple of days now

and have learnt quite a lot.

 

I have recently found myself in the jaws of a registered Loan Shark

and I am hoping to arrest the situation before it I end being a full-fledged victim of theirs.

 

I look forward to learning more and more.

 

I shall be requesting for a copy of the registered BOS on my car

but do not want to give them an idea of what steps I will be taking to keep my car.

 

Thanks for posting the info,

 

applecart.

[dx100uk]

if you have a logbook loan/bill of sale issue

 

 

please be aware the witness signature issue has since been over turned.

 

 

also ....

 

 

from my notes.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

logbook loan repossessions are not always legal,

.

if linked to a CCA agreement or if the BOS has not been registered with the high court.

.

If BOS registered then yes they can reposses,

but have to show registration and debt details.

Registration

A bill of sale can only be enforced if it was properly registered.

Since this is an expensive and difficult process,

it is rare that this actually happens.

However, failure to register the bill of sale renders it void,

and so renders any security on goods void.

.

Consequently, before allowing any creditor to gain possession of your goods,

ask to see a registered copy of the bill showing the supreme courts seal.

.

You can also call the national debt line, and ask them how to search the registry yourself.

.

Also a valid DN must be issued.

.

If linked to a CCA then can not reposses if on private property without a court order

( but can if on public road and under a third has only been paid ).

.

Over a third, they need a court order wherever it is.

.

check for...[bOS]

.

No Independant signature

No Independant Witness

Not Registered With The High Court In 7 Days

not registered AT ALL!

.

Credit Agreement Details Not On The Bill Of Sale

.

how to check:

.

email:QBEnforcement@hmcts.gsi.g ov.uk.[no spaces]

.

ring:020 7947 7772

.

write:

QB Enforcement Section,

Room E15-E17,

Royal Courts of Justice,

Strand, London, WC2A

...

.

ideally you need the BOS number

.

however

they can search by the Reg Number

.

...............

also see:

http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/firm-types/consumer-credit/consumer-credit-research/logbook-loans

.....

Do you have a problem with a Logbook Loan?

With Citizens advice estimating that over 60,000 of these loans were taken out in 2014 alone

an increasing number a causing severe difficulty and distress for borrowers.

In this guide we explain what a logbook loan is, and how they work.

What you can do if you have a repayment problem,

and what you can do if you have unknowingly bought a car with a logbook loan attached.

Three golden rules for Logbbok Loans

1)No matter how desperate you are to purchase a car, or raise cash,

NEVER consider this type of Finance

These loans are designed purely for the benefit of the lenders.

With APRs of 400+%, little consumer protection, and aggressive debt collectionicon practices

they should be avoided at all costs.

2)When purchasing a used car from whatever source,private or trade,

ALWAYS do a FULL GENUINE HPI CHECK costing around £20,

these come with a guarantee against any form of existing finance, including lbl's

3)If you have any problem with a Logbook Loan,

your first step is ALWAYS to check that the Bill Of Sale has been registered

with the High Court. You can do this here-

to check if registered

Contact Details

QB Enforcement Section

Room E15-17

Royal Courts of Justice

Strand

London

WC2A 2LL

DX 44450 Strand

Telephone: 020 7947 7772

Fax: 0870 324 0024

Email: QBEnforcement@hmcts.gsi.g ov.uk

You may read on the internet that your BOSicon will be void if witnessed by your lbl lender

Since the OFT( as was) lost the attestation case on appeal by 2 to1 this is NOT the case

full details here http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup...method=boolean

Logbook loans are a form of credit dating back to the Victorian era,

derived from the 1878/1882 Bills Of Sale Acts, with terms and conditions to match in many cases.

Problems are manyfold from extortionate charges by lenders for calling a customer,

to repossessions where owners have been left at the side of a busy road,

unable to get to work, and even sexual harassment via debt collection.

Poor practices abound, unsurprising when there is no incentive for lenders

to ensure their customers understand the terms or can afford the repayments.

In fact the very nature of this form of finance could be seen to encourage bad behaviour

– why carry out affordability checks if a single missed payments means you get to keep

the money and takeaway the car?

How does it work?

When you take out a logbook loan you will be asked to hand over your vehicle’s logbook

or vehicle registration document, which proves you are the registered keeper of the vehicle.

You’ll also have to sign a credit agreement and a form called a ‘bill of sale’.

This means the lender now owns your vehicle on a temporary basis

but you are still able to use it so long as you meet all loan repayments.

These documents are recognised by law in England, Wales and Northern Ireland

but are not used in Scotland.

The law only recognises a bill of sale if the lender registers it with the High Court.

If it’s not registered, the lender must get a court’s approval to repossess your vehicle.

You should check if the bill of sale is registered.

 

What you should do if you have a repayment problem

1) check your Bill Of Sale is registered as above

2) the lender must send you a default notice which complies with the requirements of s87(1)cca1974

allowing you fourteen clear days to remedy any default (which can be after one missed payment)

You should , if your lender will not negotiate a reduced payment, straight away on receipt of the dn

look to take out a time order. This gains you the protection of the court, which can look into the overall loan--

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/...t/Default.aspx

 

What you can do if you have purchased a car with an existing logbook loan

.

If you receive a letter threatening to repossess the car or an enforcement officer

turns up at your home to take it, you may not be able to stop them.

.

•ask to see proof of their identity and their authorisation to take the car

•ask to see the bill of sale document – they have to show you this if you ask for it

•if you feel threatened by how an enforcement officer is behaving, call the polic

•ask for written confirmation of what has been taken

•get the contact details for the logbook loan company.

.

If the lender has taken your car, you can try to get it back

and reclaim your money from the seller.

However, this can be a costly and time-consuming process and is not guaranteed to succeed.

.

If you want to get the car back, you could pay off the outstanding loan

and then take the person who sold you the car to court, to try to get your money back.

.

If you just want to get your money back, you can take the person who sold you the car to court.

Always get independent advice before you decide to take someone to court.

.

Some lenders are members of the consumer crediticon Trade Association (CCTA),

which has a code of practice covering logbook loans.

The code of practice says the lender must register the logbook loan on a register,

so it will show up when you carry out a history check on the car.

It also says they must obey certain rules when they repossess a car.

.

If you are unhappy with the way a logbook loan lender or its enforcement officers have behaved,

find out whether they are a member. If so, you can complain directly to the CCTA.

However this code is regularly ignored

.

http://www.ccta.co.uk/content/our-code.aspx

.

Finally both the Financial Conduct Authority and the Law Commission are investigating

Logbook Lending and the associated legislation,

full details here--

.

http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/firm-typ.../logbook-loans

.

http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...ls-of-sale.htm

.

for anyones info, you must act immediately on receipt of a default notice

.

What you should do if you have a repayment problem

.

1) check your Bill Of Sale is registered as above

.

2) the lender must send you a default notice which complies with the requirements of s87(1)cca1974

allowing you fourteen clear days to remedy any default (which can be after one missed payment)

.

You should , if your lender will not negotiate a reduced payment, straight away on receipt of the default notice look to take out a time order. This gains you the protection of the court, which can look into the overall loan--

.

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/...t/Default.aspx

.

dx

 

start your own thread please

 

this is for ref purposes only

 

your posts will not get help here

 

see below to start a new thread

 

dx

 

 

 

Start Your Own Thread - HERE