Gross Misconduct-Final warning & demotion

[dariusman31]

apologies, for the lateness of my response. i got the appeal letter handed in on the 22nd of December and had a letter through the door on the 31st of December confirming my appeal hearing on the 12th of Jan.

 

they seem to be very footloose and fancy free with something soo serious don't you think, they're coming across as a little cavalier about the whole thing.

[elpulpo]

Well ,you'll have to wait and see.

Give you plenty of time to put a solid appeal statement together.

[dariusman31]

Yeah, I included a lot of detail in the appeal letter which i will be referring to. I'm also going to take apart the disciplinary process and the lack of procedure for the Chairman of our board of directors (who's doing the appeal hearing) to see exactly what happened and how flawed it was. Also raise a few other issues relating to my role being effectively taken off me over the last few months, and a few other things that have also occured.

[dariusman31]

Right had my appeal hearing yesterday and spoke at length about the disc hearing and the poor investigation etc. But what really got me was the opening statement from the chairman of the board.

 

He laid down some ground rules about his remit, one of them was the fact that he had no issues with the length of time i was suspended and how long the investigation took but then out of left field he said and i quote.....

 

'the company's disciplinary policy is not contractual and that we (the company) have no obligation to follow it to the letter.

 

....amazing i nearly dropped my pen! my friend who came with me, couldn't believe it either!! how can it not be? i signed my contract of employment which included the disciplinary and grievance procedure and it's my understanding that by law! all contracts of employment has to include those procedures.

It seems my company are deluded into thinking that they can pick and choose what policies to adopt when and how they like? does that mean i can do the same? if according to them, the policies aren't contractual then this whole process, and the decision to give me a final written etc is null and void?

 

someone correct me? what do you think? i'm intrigued

Edited January 13, 2010 by dariusman31
missed a bit of text

[honeybee13]

Darius, I'm really sorry to hear that. We'll do our best to find a solution for you. Sounds completely off the wall to me.

 

HB

[elpulpo]

EHH!? I think this chap's a bit confused.

If the company has a Disciplinary & Grievance procedure, they proposed it, you agreed to it, then it certainly is contractual.

I think perhaps what he meant was, as of April 09, it's no longer Statutory.

The Dispute Resolution Procedures were repealed last year, but if the companies' procedure hasn't changed, that still stands.

Have you heard a decision yet?

[philballard30]

EHH!? I think this chap's a bit confused.

If the company has a Disciplinary & Grievance procedure, they proposed it, you agreed to it, then it certainly is contractual.

I think perhaps what he meant was, as of April 09, it's no longer Statutory.

The Dispute Resolution Procedures were repealed last year, but if the companies' procedure hasn't changed, that still stands.

Have you heard a decision yet?

 

the procedures haven't changed, i've got this from him word for word, the note taker took down, i took it down and my friend so it's all there!

 

I haven't heard yet, i'm looking for another job and the woman who's taken all my duties has now been made Office Manager! although it hasn't been officially announced, she introduced herself as this at a meeting, so i'm out of there whatever the result, and i will be making a claim, don't care how long it takes, although if the above is anything to go by, i reckon there solicitor will settle before then anyway!!

[elpulpo]

the procedures haven't changed, i've got this from him word for word, the note taker took down, i took it down and my friend so it's all there!

 

I haven't heard yet, i'm looking for another job and the woman who's taken all my duties has now been made Office Manager! although it hasn't been officially announced, she introduced herself as this at a meeting, so i'm out of there whatever the result, and i will be making a claim, don't care how long it takes, although if the above is anything to go by, i reckon there solicitor will settle before then anyway!!

Oh I wasn't challenging what you said, Phil?!, what he said is clearly wrong.

[philballard30]

No, no wasn't implying that or 'aving a pop, just stating that they wouldn't be able to wriggle of saying it if it went any further as it's sooo documented

[dariusman31]

Still no decision on my appeal, will keep you posted.

[elpulpo]

Still no decision on my appeal, will keep you posted.

How long's it been now? Were you told how long it was likely to be?

Still on the sick?

[dariusman31]

How long's it been now? Were you told how long it was likely to be?

Still on the sick?

 

Well, i had the meeting on Tuesday at 3, i was in there an hour and 10 minutes, he said the notes were going to be typed up that afternoon and i would hear as soon as possible.

I'm hoping it appears on Monday, i've had to go back to work which i did on the 6th of Jan as my sick note ran out.

The atmosphere in the office was quiet and i was quiet with everyone else, just got in with my job (fortunately i'm based out on the streets, so i've been out there most of the time) Just to compound the issue, the woman who nicked my duties has now been made Office Manager! and a totally new roster will be issued on the 1st of Feb, although there has been no official period of consultation and it's a crock of s**t and unworkable.

So, i'm definately looking for another job, and will be putting in a claim, because this is more 'constructive' evidence!

[dariusman31]

still waiting..................

[honeybee13]

Hello Darius. Are you waiting for your work or us please?

[dariusman31]

Hello Darius. Are you waiting for your work or us please?

 

Hi Bee, i've been waiting 1 week and 1 day for the result of my appeal, and i'm beginning to wonder what's happening.

You guys have been ace with your advice, spot on! i'll let you know what the decision is (when i get it:rolleyes:)

[honeybee13]

Fingers crossed for you then. We like hearing how people get on.

[dariusman31]

Well, i've had a letter and the basics are that the Chairman of the board of directors has decided to side with his CEO and uphold the decision to demote me and issue a final written warning.

Which means i'm basically now on a knife edge, that i could be stitched up by my colleagues again and be on a discipinary and fired at the drop of a hat.

I'm looking for another job, and i'm definately going to take this shocking outfit through a tribunal, they haven't got a clue about running a company and make up the rules as they go along.

I quote from the decision letter about the disc/griev policy being 'non-contractual'

 

"...5. i would like to reinstate my comments from your appeal hearing. The grievance and disciplinary procedures are not contractual. There has been no breach of procedure. The procedure adopted was in the spirit of the policy. "

 

It's in my letter in black & white. I've checked my contract and it's there sections 14 & 15 disciplinary & grievance procedures.

 

So what's my next step? there is no-one higher than the chairman, and i can't appeal an appeal.

I want to take this a lot further and make them pay!!

[elpulpo]

What to do? Write back with a copy of the contract and ask him to explain how what's in the contract isn't contractual?

Are the D&G's in the main part of your contract? There isn't a separate handbook that's just policy?

[dariusman31]

What to do? Write back with a copy of the contract and ask him to explain how what's in the contract isn't contractual?

Are the D&G's in the main part of your contract? There isn't a separate handbook that's just policy?

 

 

my contract states the title of the policies, but then says refer to your employee handbook and the policies are enclosed in there but i still have to sign the contract with all the titles of all the policies.

[teaboy2]

Well any policy referred to in your contract, weather it be referring you to the company handbook or in the bin outside, is contractual. Not only that the procedure for disciplinarys are set out in legalisation. so its a legal procedure that has to be followed and not a policy that can be changed to suit an employers own needs or believe.

 

My advice now would be to take tribunal action since you have now exhausted the company appeal process. But first you should check your home insurance policy to see if your covered for free legal advice/representation if not goto your local CAB and see an employment advisor there to help you prepare your case and application to tribunal.

 

You can get an application from the employment tribunals website here.

 

Employment Tribunal > Forms & Guidance

 

You may also telephone them and discuss the case with them for further advise from them on how to proceed aswell.

[elpulpo]

Well any policy referred to in your contract, weather it be referring you to the company handbook or in the bin outside, is contractual. Not only that the procedure for disciplinarys are set out in legalisation. so its a legal procedure that has to be followed and not a policy that can be changed to suit an employers own needs or believe.

As of April '09, the legislation regarding D&G's in the workplace was revoked and replaced with ACAS D&G Guidlines, Teaboy. ET's are required to take the ACAS code into account when considering relevant cases, and may adjust an award accordingly if they feel a party has unreasonably disregarded them.

But it aint 'The Law' anymore, unfortunately.

[cadencealex]

I thought it was Klu Klux Klan? No mention of Klutzes?!

[teaboy2]

Thanks for the info Elpulpo i wasnt actually aware of that.

 

However the guidlines for the procedure to be followed is still more or less the same, only difference being its no longer automatically unfair if the employer doesnt follow the guidlines (at least thats what i can make out from a quick look through it all).

 

But that itself doesnt mean that the employer didnt act unfairly towards the employee in which such legalisation is still ineffect, such as section 106 of the employment rights act 1996 as an example.

 

p.s this post is just a generalisation and is not specific to any particular case, but more an example that although disiplinary procedures are no longer law the right to not be treated or dismissed unfairly is still law.

Edited January 25, 2010 by teaboy2

[elpulpo]

Thanks for the info Elpulpo i wasnt actually aware of that.

 

However the guidlines for the procedure to be followed is still more or less the same, only difference being its no longer automatically unfair if the employer doesnt follow the guidlines (at least thats what i can make out from a quick look through it all).

 

But that itself doesnt mean that the employer didnt act unfairly towards the employee in which such legalisation is still ineffect, such as section 106 of the employment rights act 1996 as an example.

 

p.s this post is just a generalisation and is not specific to any particular case, but more an example that although disiplinary procedures are no longer law the right to not be treated or dismissed unfairly is still law.

Absolutely. Not least, most companies that have D&G procedures haven't changed anything since 04/09 anyway.

[dariusman31]

As of April '09, the legislation regarding D&G's in the workplace was revoked and replaced with ACAS D&G Guidlines, Teaboy. ET's are required to take the ACAS code into account when considering relevant cases, and may adjust an award accordingly if they feel a party has unreasonably disregarded them.

But it aint 'The Law' anymore, unfortunately.

 

Just so i'm clear, Disc & Griev procedures are now according to ACAS code of practice?

 

And also, i had a 'heart to heart' with the boss today, i got a little teary! but he made some assurances about the future i don't wether to believe him or not, as the other thing he said was ' In 6 months time i don't want to be at a tribunal about this'....... i was thinking 'no more like a year down the line' but i'm still looking for another job, my supervisors position is gone, and i've got a final written on my record for 12 months. So i don't know if i'd get one!