A Little Bit More Info - Sort Of Related To This Topic

[jackieandwayne]

A recent poster regrding RLP asked the question "is automatic ID recognition used" the reply being it would probably be too expensive.

 

I can tell you what happens in my town, from inside info, can't speak for other towns but I wouldn;t be surprised to find this is very common.

 

Here, we have two systems running together Ringmaster for the shops in the Town, and Pubwatch for the pubs.

 

Ringmaster: the shop keepers have access to police radio and they all work together (with the Council's CCTV system on the High Street) in this. They do not use the automatic face recognition, what they do is keep a photograph of the person behind the counter so if you present at the checkout its likely you will be recognised - depends on who serves you. If you happen to be a prolific offender its very likely the security staff will know your face anyway. In our town it is quite common for the CCTV to track you from shop to shop, with all the shopkeepers alerted and in touch with local police via the radio. They let the perp go about his/her business, then decide when to swoop. However, we have a very bad heroin problem in this Town, as well as the neighbouring Town, so that is why there are so many shoplifters here, and of course they will keep coming back because of the desperate need for the drugs - hence they steal to fund the habit. They then become very well known.

 

Pubwatch: Well, we all know what we have to do to get on this scheme don;t we? Get plastered, cause a fight or something, and then act up with the coppers who have to come and sort you out! Same principal, and the photo's are clearly displayed behind the bar for all to see. It is harder to get served in a pub if you are on pubwatch than it is to get recognised and kicked out of a shop! The Council are heavily involved here, they do regular spot checks and all the local publicans know that if they have signed up to the scheme and get caught serving someone they shouldn't questions will be asked when their licence is up for renewal.

 

The photo;s are provided from the mugshots the police have, and if it is the case that you haven't been in trouble before, they can, and will, use a close up of the CCTV. Believe me, this CCTV is so accurate, you can zoom so close to someone walking down the high street, you can see what jewelerry they are wearing, or where they got their burger from! I've sat and watched the Council's CCTV operators guiding the police through the High Street to catch someone. Scary stuff.

 

Whether any of this is morally/legally right is not for me to say - I'm just warning people how you might be recognised if you return to a shop that has accused you of stealing from them.

[MARTIN3030]

It was I who was one of the people who answered.

We have to distinguish between Pubwatch-this system operates a universal ban on those pubs signed up to the scheme.

The RLP scenario is a little different in that TK Max may ban someone-but that does not mean they will be refused entry to -say Aldi next door.

 

Its interesting to see how Pubwatch works because I have seen instances where Landlords will serve someone who has not done anything wrong in their pub-especially if its a regular who the landlord or landlady knows well and thinks they were hard done by to get a ban in another pub-are they going to lose his £40 quid on a Saturday night because his girlfriend caused a fight in another pub and he went to defend ? I dont think so.

 

RLPs clients although they are big names,can hardly be seen to be a big percentage of all retailers.

Which is probably a good thing-given what we all know here and have read about,I cannot believe that the smaller retailers would want to be a part of such an operation-these are usually people who have their fingers on the business button and know whats going on.

Its apparant that those at the top in RLPs portfolio certainly do not-Lets hope soon enough we will see what the truth is.

[jackieandwayne]

Martin, you are correct about pubwatch and landlords serving those they shouldn't - happens all the time in three particular pubs here. In one case I know for a fact that the landlady lets the alcoholics in at 9am, they can drink until 11 when the regular times start, then they get kicked out. Here the local authority do spot checks, and when they swooped on this pub at a time when there were three persons drinking early AM, they all pretended they were cleaning the pub!

 

I can guarantee that nearly every single shop, including the charity shops, are signed up to ringmaster. But we do have a very bad drug problem here, and some of these addicts get very nasty; this I think is because we have an awful lot of rehab centres in this area, as well as being a port. For violence on the level I have witnessed then I believe tough measures should be in place, such as banning them from shops.

 

However, what RLP are doing to innocent people is a different matter and also disgusting and I'm 100% behind any campaign to stop them.

[shanty]

A recent poster regrding RLP asked the question "is automatic ID recognition used" the reply being it would probably be too expensive.

 

I can tell you what happens in my town, from inside info, can't speak for other towns but I wouldn;t be surprised to find this is very common.

 

Here, we have two systems running together Ringmaster for the shops in the Town, and Pubwatch for the pubs.

 

Ringmaster: the shop keepers have access to police radio and they all work together (with the Council's CCTV system on the High Street) in this. They do not use the automatic face recognition, what they do is keep a photograph of the person behind the counter so if you present at the checkout its likely you will be recognised - depends on who serves you. If you happen to be a prolific offender its very likely the security staff will know your face anyway. In our town it is quite common for the CCTV to track you from shop to shop, with all the shopkeepers alerted and in touch with local police via the radio. They let the perp go about his/her business, then decide when to swoop. However, we have a very bad heroin problem in this Town, as well as the neighbouring Town, so that is why there are so many shoplifters here, and of course they will keep coming back because of the desperate need for the drugs - hence they steal to fund the habit. They then become very well known.

 

Pubwatch: Well, we all know what we have to do to get on this scheme don;t we? Get plastered, cause a fight or something, and then act up with the coppers who have to come and sort you out! Same principal, and the photo's are clearly displayed behind the bar for all to see. It is harder to get served in a pub if you are on pubwatch than it is to get recognised and kicked out of a shop! The Council are heavily involved here, they do regular spot checks and all the local publicans know that if they have signed up to the scheme and get caught serving someone they shouldn't questions will be asked when their licence is up for renewal.

 

The photo;s are provided from the mugshots the police have, and if it is the case that you haven't been in trouble before, they can, and will, use a close up of the CCTV. Believe me, this CCTV is so accurate, you can zoom so close to someone walking down the high street, you can see what jewelerry they are wearing, or where they got their burger from! I've sat and watched the Council's CCTV operators guiding the police through the High Street to catch someone. Scary stuff.

 

Whether any of this is morally/legally right is not for me to say - I'm just warning people how you might be recognised if you return to a shop that has accused you of stealing from them.

 

I have worked for companies that have very strict Data Protection procedures,and they would be horrified at shops keeping Photos of offenders under the counter.They are usually kept under lock and key,and a register kept of who has viewed them.Otherwise they (regularly) tend to get stolen by shop staff which makes the shops not very popular with the Police.

[midnightminky]

i worked in a well known womens clothing store and under our desk at the front we had a book with all the known shoplifters in. they were up to date pictures which were supplied to us by the police.

[shanty]

I don't doubt-but it is NOT good practice.

The shopkeepers who take possession of the photos are usually asked to sign that they will be stored securely,and can get themselves in trouble if they do not. Even known shoplifters have rights to have their data treated with respect!

Edited March 28, 2009 by shanty

[MARTIN3030]

They certainly have a right to know how their personal data and images of them are being used.

[jackieandwayne]

Another little shocker for you then - I worked for local authority for 26 years until recently, this is how i know all these little tales .

 

Never mind keeping mugshots given to me by the police under lock and key - I used the wall next to my desk and when I left I had a very good collection. (Including a nasty ex-councillor, who's face i set into a dart Board - oh how we loved it in times of stress!) Some were lads on ASBO's on estates I managed, some were transients considered dangerous and likely to turn up on an estate I managed, I had many mugshots of serious wife batterer's, simply because if I visited one of these poor ladies, I would know straight away if the man was present, or worse still, not in the house but I might spot him lurking around waiting to attack again. Because i was out on estates all day long I was more likely to see some of these wanted characters and could report in quickly and have the situation dealt with.

 

It was also common to pop over the road to the cop shop and be shown info and pictures on there computer system. I regularly attended sessions at the beat office locally where i had access to information, and was briefed in the same way as the officers.

 

This was all part of joint working. The point here is, that I would never disclose any info I had been given - whatever the circumstances - but many people would and therein lies the danger. I'm thinking of sex offenders and their apparent right to anonimity or whatever, well I can see how some parents given that information could misuse it, and I'm not giving judgement on that just that it is a possibility that has to be considered in this sort of working.

 

I'm in two minds about all the security - in my job I see the misery that crime causes innocent people, makes them afraid to live in their homes and so on. So to my mind the perpetrators need to be caught and punished and if I can help - well so be it. But I am talking about the type of person who would weasle their way into an OAP;s home and rob them, or bash a female up, or deal drugs to kids, this carp with RLP is out of control, especially when it involves minors.

 

The lady on here who suggested reporting it to the Children;s Commission, should go ahead and do just that

[shanty]

Another little shocker,I have the same amount of experience,but it is dangerous to leave photos on a wall.

What regularly happens is that either transient security staff steal them ,(and the retention rate of these staff is not good) shop staff,young staff who want to show them off to their friends (I've got some mugshots,have a look") also remove them. To say "never mind about keeping them under lock and key" shows a blatant disregard for the law.

 

We ALL need to adhere to these rules-they are there for a very good reason.We are not excused this because we think we are heroes fighting the bad guys.

 

We ALL need to show professionalism-not sink to the depths that others do.

 

We need to raise standards,whilst exposing bad practice NOT COVER IT UP by saying "Ahem,this is not relevant".

Edited April 2, 2009 by shanty