First plus loan for everest windows and a charging order - can i now Cca?

[pedross]

Hi Exasp

Looking at the whole situation on face value I believe the best thing to do to start with is to write to Everest and ask them to clarify certain details. The reason for this is that they are the least likely people to have done something dodgy. Maybe there is a simple explanation and when they point out what they have on record it might throw some light on what has happened and point out the next step.

I would not send a copy of the installation report, just the letter, but I would suggest something along the following lines:

Everest

15 September 2009

Dear Sirs

Thank you for the copy invoices recently supplied to me. However, due to personal circumstances, I need to clarify certain details regarding the goods you supplied and the prices charged. I would therefore be obliged if you could clarify several basic points which are as follows:

Invoice ending 120

• Date of order
  
• Date of installation
  
• Installation address
  
• Itemised list of goods installed
  
• Amount of any discount or incentive deducted
  
• Amount of any deposit received by you
  
• Amount received from First Plus in settlement
  
• Method of payment e.g. credit card / cheque / bank transfer
  
• Clarification of the comment shown on the invoice ‘No service until balance is paid’
  
• Confirmation why the amount shown varies from the balance on the installation and completion report
  

Invoice ending 640

• Date of order
  
• Date of installation
  
• Installation address
  
• Itemised list of goods installed
  
• Amount of any discount or incentive deducted
  
• Amount of any deposit received by you
  
• Amount received from First Plus in settlement
  

I trust that this is basic information held on your files and thank you, in anticipation, for your assistance in this matter.

Yours faithfully

Exasperated

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross,

Thanks thats brilliant, I will get the letter off to Everest asap and report back when I get a reply

Thanks and kind regards

Exasp

[exasperated]

i am sorry to be vague on this one exasperated, but on re reading the thread again i would say that in general terms you only have a limited time to challenge a CO and need VERY good reason after say, a few months for doing so, (although i believe there are circumstances where the window of opportunity can open up for you in this respect);

 

more importantly i think, is the problem of who added the date and when!

 

as i said before , as the accuser it is for you to prove this happened not for the other side to prove they did not.

 

I think also you might be asked by the other side/court why you did not date when you signed yourself, and reference would be made to the fact that a person is held to what he signs and you should have taken care to have dated when you signed

 

sorry to be so pessimistic on this one but i think that unless you can get together with the creditors and resolve the issue , you might find a legal route very challenging (IMO)

 

Hi DD,

Your opinion is very much appreciated and to be honest as 'Pedross' and I went through all the details on here and by PM it did start to look more gloomy. I am not in a position to take them on in court without something substantial but Pedross has scripted me a letter to send to Everest so I am going to try that.

As I said previously though I am prepared to listen to anyone's constructive criticisms/opinions as that will make me a wiser person when dealing with agressive creditors/dca's

Thanks and regards

Exasp

[exasperated]

Hi,

The 'replacement' agreement what would it have been for?

I know I should know the answer to that but I am afraid I don't

Thanks

Exasp

[pedross]

Hi,

The 'replacement' agreement what would it have been for?

I know I should know the answer to that but I am afraid I don't

Thanks

Exasp

 

Replacement relates to the credit agreement and we have not challenged that yet.

 

As far as we know Everest have no knowledge of the credit agreement so we need to wait and see how they comment about about the invoice to determine the relevence of 'replacement'.

 

It may be that the order was changed as I suggested previously but that does not mean you took out a new agreement. You can 'verbally' agree to buy extra goods but you cannot 'verbally' arrange a new credit agreement as far as I am aware. For the agreement to be correct it must comply with the CCA.

 

One step at a time if we are to succeed.

 

Pedross

[diddydicky]

hi

 

hello again - i have sent you a PM with regard to my comments on the two agreements

 

putting my old salesmans hat on i think i might have resolved the issue of the 5 month delay in dates

 

I rather suspect that you were signed up on a "deferred" loan whereby you did not make a payment for several months hence why you cannot understand why the agreement is dated prior to you making payments

 

alternatively perhaps there was a delay between signing the order and agreement and the fitting of the windows as the agreement does say the first payment is due one month after the finance company has paid the supplier and not one month after the agreement was signed!!

 

dick

Edited September 15, 2009 by diddydicky

[diddydicky]

Ok been doing some more brain training........

 

You signed the first agreement on Monday 30 september 2002

 

This was signed by the lender the following Friday 4th October 2002

 

Ok the second agreement was again allegedly signed by you also on 30 september (let us assume for the moment that they then sent it back to you to sign and that they added the date under your signature when the got it back from you)

 

i think they would have some explaining to do to a judge to convince him that they signed the first agreement on friday 4th and managed to get the replacement agreement back to you to sign and then back to themselves to sign on the following Monday (7th) all within the 2 days of the weekend!!

 

methinks a rat is starting to smell pretty badly here

 

the replacement document cannot possibly have been seen by you!! in which case you cannot be bound by its contents

[diddydicky]

the different handwriting-

 

OK you stated that the same female rep filled out both forms- however as you have stated - and i can see, the two documents have different handwriting,

 

that means that the answer to my earlier question as to whether you have definate proof that she filled in both documents is answered- you cant have seen her do this as the handwriting is different

 

the answer i suspect is that the second document was filled in by someone in the finance company office-

 

since the two documents are signed on behalf of the finance company by two seperate people, it is a fair bet that the person who filled out the replacement agreement was the same person that signed it on behalf of the company

 

that clears up that mystery but still- the second document- if claimed to be a replacement for the first has to be dodgy because of the dates and timescales

[diddydicky]

its bed time now

[diddydicky]

Hi,

Here is an update to where I am now so anyone with any opinions are welcome to comment

 

As I see it this is what I need an answer to.....

 

 

 

Agreement 1

• Repayments were quoted @ £155 per month but the actual amount collected was around £88- why?
  
• The invoice from Everest is £6399 but the loan amount on the agreement is £10,200
  
• Why is the loan commencement date 02/03 when the work was completed oct 2002 when the invoice clearly states that payment is due immediately upon completion
  

Agreement 2

• What is the repalcement agreement for?
  

Unfortuantely I am not in a position to stir up a Hornets nest due to the CO and bearing this in mind what would you write/ do next? FYI I am trying to get into contact with the Everest REP

 

Many thanks for your assistance

Exasp

 

the everest amount is for the goods i suspect, the amount from the loan company is the goods plus the total amount of credit with interest and costs added

[exasperated]

Hi,

I have recieved the SAR report today so if you could indicate to me what I'm looking for that would be helpful as both files contain 50 pages at least.

Pedross.........

Good news agreement ending 640 says amount advanced £4,359.00 which is significantly different than then the amount on the agreement @ £10,200.

I knew something was amiss and I am glad I have not been wasting everyone's time

Not heard from Everest yet!!!!!!!1

Please asisst me if you wish

Exasp

[pedross]

Hi Exasp

 

We seem to be getting closer to putting together a good argument. Did they enclose another copy of either agreement.

 

You basically need to look through each page and do what you have already started to do, check for any comments that add value to what we are attempting to do. You will not find much but the odd point like the one you have found is valuable.

 

We then wait for the reply off Everest and compare what they say to what we understand that First Plus have done. You can then write to First Plus and ask them to explain the areas we are not happy with and not tell them what everest have said. You should not play your hand with FP yet because we are still not completely clear what has been supplied. When we know that it might be clear what has happened. The reply from First Plus will determine the next step.

 

At the moment it does look as if the amounts you borrowed are not the same as the agreements. What does stand out is that you said property 1 had more windows fitted than property 2 in which case is 640 prop 2 and 120 prop 1 which does appear to be the way its working out. We will have to wait for everest.

 

Pedross

[exasperated]

Hello,

Can an OC after being returned an income and expenditure form file a petition for Bankruptcy if it shows you have a deficit in outgoings to income

Regards

Exasp

[dx100uk]

you are under no obligation to reveal any of financial matters to anyone, barring a court, its none of their business.

 

more info please or point me to a previous thread?

 

dx

[exasperated]

Hi DX,

Thanks for the reply. I offered First Plus a F & F settlement figure well below the outstanding balance. In response they sent me an I & E form requesting those details saying they would consider my offer when I returned the form. They already have a CO on this loan but I needed guidance on whether you think that because of the deficit rather than accept my offer they may petition for bankruptcy. When I actually did the sums I was in deficit as my outgoings were more than that coming in.

Please let me know what you think DX

Your time is appreciated

Exasp

[dx100uk]

you didn't say they already had a charging order.

 

give us more info, you may be able to get this set aside.

 

dx

[exasperated]

Hi DX,

I hope I haven't wasted your time as I have another thread dealing with the CO which Pedross is helping me with. As this was such a pertinent question I thought it should be a separate listing. The reason I did so was because they have give me 7 days to return the I & E upon which they will make a decision on whether to accept my offer.

In your experience would returning an I & E with a deficit result in a petition for bankruptcy and if so what would you do?

My parents are bailing me out at the minute and to get this CO removed for the offer I have made would be a result

I would appreciate it if you could give me your advice on that question if poss.

Here's the link to the other thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/217297-cca-dated-5-months.html

Thanks DX

[exasperated]

Hello

I received this reply from Everest to the letter by Pedross above:

Pedross and anyone else with comments are greatly appreciated

 

Covering letter:

 

 

Account ending 120:

 

 

Account ending 640:

 

[dx100uk]

having skimmed the other thread, it's obviously a somewhat complex and somewhat scattered story, that PD has now got his head around, i do not intend, nor have the knowledge to advise specifically, upon the CO.

 

my thoughts lie in the hope that the agreement used to gain the CCJ/CO is either unenforcable or totally unlawful & thus void.

 

you need to keep the other thread upto date with what you have posted here:

 

it puzzles me WHY they are playing ball with an offer, if they have a CCJ and you have failed it, they should have hit you hard by now.

 

i think you are onto something [or PD is!] and they are scared to chance their arm.

 

however, i still stand by what i have said, NO-ONE bar a court of law has any business to know your finacial I/O.

 

pers i think it better you do not tell them anything, if they find out the chances of getting anything from your are slim they might just pull the carpet from under you early, before you are ready to fire your salvo.

 

you need to get PD's view on if this agreement is lawful.

 

not my game sorry.

 

dx

[pedross]

Hi Exasp

 

Its getting clearer but the full picture is still not completely clear.

 

You said on post 39 that the first installation (640) was quite large and the second property was less but not according to the invoices. Do the windows and doors tally up with what was fitted to each property.

 

It looks to me as if 120 is property 1 and 640 is property 2.

 

If that is the case could it be that you only ordered a few windows at property 1 to start with and was the order increased before fitting. I take it that you were not at the property when the windows were fitted.

 

The next thing that stands out is that you have an agreement for £10200 which appears to relate to property 2 and which you admit has your signature I believe. Why did you sign an agreement for that amount when it clearly is far more than either one single installation. Did they add the additional windows from the first order onto the second order or something similar. Did First Plus send you the copy you posted up earlier.

 

To sum up it appears that the charging order is for 120 / prop 1

The DMP is for 640 / prop 2 - but where is the correct agreement for £6444 (640)

 

A lot of questions to think about and answer so that we can move forward.

 

Pedross

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross,

(1) The doors and windows seem to tally but sorry I am unsure

(2) I was not in the properties when the installations were carried out

(3) God knows why I signed it probably on the assumption it was for both installations???

(4) Nothing extra was fitted

(5) Everest sent me the copy

(6) CO FOR 120 DMP FOR 640

Thanks PD you are a legend

Exasp

[pedross]

I meant who sent the copy agreement for £10,200 in post 39

 

Plus just to confirm - is it possibly your signature on agreement 120 (replacement)

 

The female everest rep must have asked why you were ordering another set of windows 6 weeks later how did the conversation go?

 

When I know the answers I will do another letter for you

[pedross]

Hi Exasp

 

You have asked me by pm to look at this thread and you have posted information regarding the main thread that you did not tell me.

 

dx is obviously a very aware person looking at the posts and has made some very valid points.

 

I did not know you were communicating with First Plus trying to do deals. I am moving along a very defined path and any other route could scupper the plan.

 

You need to get the site team to merge the threads and have patience.

 

Too many cooks etc as dx spotted straight away.

 

Pedross

[saintly_1]

Threads merged

[exasperated]

Hi PD,

In answer to your questions:

1) The copy agreement in post 39 was sent to me by first plus after the standard CCA request.

2) It is definitely my signature on the replacement agreement but I cannot remember signing it. Though PD that does not mean i didn't unfortunately.

3) I just don't remember it happening the way the agreements were supposedly signed but in my defence I have not dated them they are dated by someone else as it certainly does not look like my writing.

I am embarrassed to admit that I just am mixed up with the whole thing and I just don't remember

Hope you can stil help

Exasp