First plus loan for everest windows and a charging order - can i now Cca?

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross

To clarify...

The first agreement was taken out on a property I shared with my wife which seems in order. Without going into detail too much during a temporary separation from my wife I moved to another property where the second loan was taken out 5 months later. It is on this second loan that the CO was obtained.

Both 'deals' and forms were completed with the same Everest female sales rep but you will note below that documents are in different handwriting.

Although requested prior to the interim and final CO hearing they did not send these documents to me until after the court case. It prelimanary went to cardiff before Judge Hendicott who granted an interim charging order, although I did submit a defence BUT DID NOT ATTEND and asked for the full hearing to be transfered to my local court. The full hearing was at my court where I represented myself and eversheds had appointed a local barrister. He called me into the side room and although very sympathetic with my cause he explained he was there to 'do a job'. Everything I put before the local judge and had submitted previously seemed to be ignored even the fact eversheds had not sent me any requested info.

Not being aware of my legal rights did not help as I was not aware of what I have since learned here on the cag site so never thought to push for a copy of the agreement. At the time I argued why eversheds should be granted a charging order on an unsecured loan, pointing out the extortianate interest rates I had paid to them and could have avoided if I had taken the loan secured on a property. He disregarded my argument and simply stated that I owed the money and the creditor deserves financial recompense in this instance as a guarantee on my property through a charging order.

The file on this is quite large so i need to go through it and load all the relevant documents. As I said to citizenb before I really need to get the Subject Access Request request back which I sent today to clarify what is going on as Tbh I am a bit confused myself. The main area of confusion is the 'replacement agreement' which you pointed out yesterday which was sent to me after the court case when I requested it via a letter template from this site.

I will start from the beginning when I load everything so you will be able to

make better sense of what is a very confusing situation

Thanks for your comments

E

[foolishgirl]

It prelimanary went to cardiff before Judge Hendicott who granted an interim charging order, although I did submit a defence ......

 

... He disregarded my argument and simply stated that I owed the money and the creditor deserves financial recompense in this instance as a guarantee on my property through a charging order.

 

So was this the first time you had the opportunity to defend yourself? Did you not already have a CCJ for this debt? If so, can you post the details of that please.

 

I will start from the beginning when I load everything so you will be able to

make better sense of what is a very confusing situation

 

Thanks - that would be a good idea

FG

[exasperated]

Hi FG,

I do not have the CCJ in the file, that does not mean to say that they did not issue one though. As I said previously I did bury my head in the sand for a while until I came across the cag website so it may have slipped through my hands at that time.

Will this be mentioned in the SAR?

Regards

E

[pedross]

So correct me if I am wrong.

 

The first agreement (ag 1) is for windows & doors you ordered for a house you jointly owned with your wife (prop A)

 

The second agreement (ag 2) which you do not have but you have a copy of a replacement agreement (ag 3) which you did not sign or date. This related to windows & doors you ordered 5 months later for a different property (prop B ) which presumably did not belong to you.

 

You did not keep up the payments on ag 2 so first plus took you to court using ag 3 and obtained a charging order on prop A.

 

Thats how I read the situation and if we can establish the facts based on that scenario then it may get clearer still. There are still some questions which could shed some light but I will not post them on the open forum.

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross,

In a nutshell, only I didn't keep up payments on either due having a change in my self employment circumstances. They were happy to have agreement 1 on a DMP through the CCCS but for some reason they wanted a charging order for loan 2 agreement 2 (not seen yet) & 3 (the replacement)

The reason I did not pick up on it I presumed that they had placed replacement on that agreement as it was for 'replacement' doors and windows.

Thanks again for your assistance

E

[pedross]

OK so did the second agreement you signed at your new address have the new address or the wife's address.

 

 

It would appear to me that the two agreements you posted up may have identical information on each. In which case are you sure that it is in fact the first agreement you signed that is on a debt mgt plan.

 

You need to read my post 33 again and do as I say and post the reply.

 

We need the facts absolutely accurate to resolve this.

[diddydicky]

hi, sorry im busy moving home at present- just read this thread

 

you keep saying that the "REP" dated this agreement!

''

what proof do you have that he did so?

 

i ask because he may well deny that and say that YOU dated it wrongly(accidentally)

 

if you are going to accuse you then have the burden to prove the allegation - it is not for the other party to prove his innocence?

[foolishgirl]

Might be, but your best bet would be to look at your credit files or try this web site:

CCJs, court orders & fines - Search yourself and others - Trust Online

 

If you find out you have a CCJ, you can then apply to the court for a copy of the judgment, POC etc. A CO should not have been issued without a CCJ being in place.

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In answer to your questions...

• Both agreements contain the same address
  
• The CO was obtained on the second agreement with 'replacement' wrote on it
  
• The first agreement is still with first plus and being paid through a DMP
  

Regarding post 33 both documents are the same except for the amounts are different on Total costs of goods and services, customer deposit, amount of credit, amount of advance, Total loan amont (E+F). The arrangement fee is the same on both at £45. See the copies below

You have highlighted something though!!!!

Something is definitely a miss here and I think they have the agreements mixed up. The first installation was quite large which relates to agreement 1 and the montly repayments on that agreement were stipulated at £160ish per month when in fact only £85ish was withdrawn from my bank according to the the notice they sent me in may this year to comply with CCA 1974 and in addition...

 

I have a copy of the installation and completion report from Everest at the second property and interestingly the amount of loan stipulated on the installation report is £2000 ish which is a third of the amount of loan quoted on the 'replacement' agreement that relates to that installation at £6000 ish.

I have therefore requested copy invoices for both installations from Everest and will upload those invoices when I receive them

Hope the above makes sense but clearly they have mixed up the documents which has confused me. I thought firstly that the CO was for the work carried out on property 1 which would have been correct for the £6500 CO they obtained. In fact though you have now made me realise it was for property 2 which was only a few windows and a much smaller job which was thousands of pounds less.

I am sure there will be more confusion to follow unfortunately but I have copied some documents below for your perusal so you can reassure me I am not going mental!!

They are

(1) original agreement 1 ending in 640 (Note the repayment amounts)

(2) Letter forwarded from First Plus to comply with CCA 1974 for agreement 1 ending in 640 which clearly states that I have paid half of monthly payments quoted above. You will also note that the loan origin date and amount do not tally

(3) Original agreement 2 ending in 120 stating amount for credit @ £6040

(4) Installation report showing invoice value to First Plus @ £2000 BUT SIMPLY CROSSED OUT BY FIRST PLUS AND CHANGED TO £6040

Thanks

E

 

(1)

 

 

 

(2)

 

(3)

 

 

(4)

 

[pedross]

Hi exasp

 

You do seem a little confused as to what has happened here which is making it really difficult although I am managing to work out some facts. This is what you said in an earlier post:

 

Two home imrovement unsecured loans with first plus, one taken out Oct 2002 and one March 2003. The first loan taken out was handed to Eversheds(despite not missing a single payment for nearly 5 years) who succesfully obtained a Charging Order on my property.

 

and this is what you said in the post above:

 

In answer to your questions...

• Both agreements contain the same address
  
• The CO was obtained on the second agreement with 'replacement' wrote on it
  
• The first agreement is still with first plus and being paid through a DMP
  

The charging order is for £6500 so there must be court documents to show how the figure is arrived at. The first loan was for about £8,000 and you paid it for 5 years at least so if there was about £2500 costs the figures would match.

 

The second loan was for somewhere between £2000 & £6000 so it is unlikely that a charging order based on that would total £6500.

 

I am surprised you do not remember roughly what you ordered. Did you in fact agree a loan for the amount shown on the first agreement.

 

The next question is the agreements 2 & 3. If you in fact signed an agreement for windows on prop 2 did they actually put the property address on the agreement and how much was it actually for. The Everest completion report suggests that the value was £3079 and First plus were paying £2019. What was the 2.5% credit card charge and did you recieve cash back after 90 days and if so how much.

 

The final question (piece of the jigsaw) was did you or someone else request additional windows while the work was in progress.

 

I know it is a while ago but something is missing from what you are telling me. You should know roughly what happened if not actual figures.

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross,

I have requested copy invoices from Everest who have traced them via the contract number which fortunately is on the agreements which ties them both together.

In answer to your question I do know what I ordered but where the confusion has been is that I presumed the CO related to the loan on property 1 as the second loan on proerty 2 was only small. No further windows were fitted to the second property so the loan amount should not have changed which according to Everest was for £2019.00. The property address placed on the agreement was the first property address not the actual address. I cannot remember receiving a 'cash back' but I cannot say that with any honesty.

For your info below I have copied further documents namely..

Letters 1 & 2 are copies of info requests to Eversheds which they never replied to

Letter 3 is a copy of the letter sent to the local disrict judge prior to the hearing

Letter 4 is the claim particulars

Letter 5 is the final charging order

 

(1)

 

 

(2)

 

 

(3)

 

 

(4)

 

 

(5)

 

 

If you think anything else could be useful please let me know.

Many thanks for your kind attention in this matter it is appreciated

Exasp

[exasperated]

Hi FG,

Will do and thanks for watching my thread, post back soon

Exasp

[pedross]

I think we are on the right track.

 

There is definately something wrong with the agreements based on the information you have provided. Now you have provided the court forms it clearly shows that it is ..102 that the CO relates to and if you only borrowed £2019 why was a fake replacement produced.

 

It will be interesting to see the Everest invoices when they arrive. I am not sure what we can do in the meantime, probably just wait.

 

The probable situation is that the windows belong to the property owner and the debt belongs to the person who is party to the agreement, you. The windows were provided by Everest and the money by First plus, two seperate issues. But something else has also happened and that is where the mystery is.

 

Pedross

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross,

Hopefully you can see where I got confused and agree that I am actually not going mental!!

Soon as the invoices arrive I will post, likewise with the SAR request for the First Plus agreements

Kind Regards

Exasp

[exasperated]

morning exasperated

this is interesting but I can't offer advice I'm afraid as I'm a bit of a novice myself.

 

Is the agreement number exactly the same on the letter and the supposed agreement?

Hi sunshine 54,

Sorry I missed your comment but yes the letter and agreement are the same

Thanks for your comments and viewing my thread

Exasp

[exasperated]

Hi Guys,

I recieved the invoices from Everest this morning and as suspected the amounts do not tally. Not quite sure where to go with this now as they do have agreements with my signature on them.

Agreement 1 ending in 640 states that the costs of goods and services is £10,200 but the invoice from Everest states £6399 (see letter (1) below). It may be worth mentioning again that the agreement clearly states repayments of £155.64 per calendar month when in fact we have only ever paid £88 per month give or take a few pence

Agreement 2 (the replacement agreement) for which they have the charging order does tally with the Everest invoice which is invoiced to me using the address at the 2nd property (see letter (2) below). the agreement however does show the first property address.

All I can say is I must have been temporarily insane as I have no recollection of having paid and/or signed for such such a large amount of money for a small two up two down house.

Hopefully you will agree that clarification is in order for the agreement ending 640.

Anyway here is a copy of the invoices....

 

(1)

 

 

(2)

 

Edited September 11, 2009 by exasperated
left deatils on form

[pedross]

It is difficult to know what to say.

 

We have 3 situations now.

 

1. First Plus have 2 agreements which do not actually tally with the everest invoices.

 

2. Everest have 2 invoices which suggest that someone was aware that you were buying windows for a house you did not own on inv 2 and something is not right.

 

3. You are completely unaware of the prices of the orders and your memory is thousands of pounds out. Are you sure that you did not order both lots at the same time?

 

Did you actually pay £2000+ deposit on the 1st order & £1090 on the second?

I have an idea what to do but it will not help if there is information regarding the orders that I am not aware about.

 

If there is anything that you do not want to post PM me.

[exasperated]

Hi Pedross,

No thats about it, I actually cannot remember what deposit was placed when. I do know that the installations were months apart and this is confirmed by the loan commencement date. We had the invoices itemised and we have been and counted the numbers of doors and windows on both properties and Invoice 1 property 1 tallies with those on invoice 1. Property 2 was a different matter we could not find the all of the windows and doors quoted on the itemised invoice.

I am at a loss how to progress this now as I know something is a miss but I cannot see the 'woods for the tree's'

However what is for sure is...

Agreement 1 is a mystery? Is it normal practice for loan firms to quote repayments of 155 per month and then collect £88ish. Both invoice and agreement show the same contract number so surely the amount of credit must be the same as the invoice should it not?

Agreement 2.. I am racking my brains trying to remember signing a 'replacement' agreement and why I did so but I just cannot recollect it.

Regards PMing you, what is it you would like to see as I think I have more or less listed it all but, please PM me with any requests for info or advice you want to give that you think will help me

Sincere thanks Pedross for watching m,y thread

Exasp

[exasperated]

Hi,

Here is an update to where I am now so anyone with any opinions are welcome to comment

 

As I see it this is what I need an answer to.....

 

 

 

Agreement 1

• Repayments were quoted @ £155 per month but the actual amount collected was around £88- why?
  
• The invoice from Everest is £6399 but the loan amount on the agreement is £10,200
  
• Why is the loan commencement date 02/03 when the work was completed oct 2002 when the invoice clearly states that payment is due immediately upon completion
  

Agreement 2

• What is the repalcement agreement for?
  

Unfortuantely I am not in a position to stir up a Hornets nest due to the CO and bearing this in mind what would you write/ do next? FYI I am trying to get into contact with the Everest REP

 

Many thanks for your assistance

Exasp

[diddydicky]

i am still struggling to understand why you say that their rep backdated the agreement!

 

what evidence do you have for this?

 

I am not having a go but i have to say that unless you can show clearly that he did so, and coupled with a "hazy" memory of what did and did not happen rather than hard facts you might struggle with this

[exasperated]

Hi DD,

I would like to explain the hazy memory a little if possible as it is hard to understand how an individual cannot remeber specific loans.....

Firstly my circumstances back in 2002 were significantly different than they are today. I had really sucessful business's as sole trader and a limited company directorship with another individual and earnings were fantastic. Cash flow was the problem which is why I took out the loans. I reckon that at some point around that time I had over £250k credit on the sole partnership business's and domeastically (excluding mortgage) plus further loans and credits on the business probably nearly another £150k maybe more. I do not want to sound predantic but the loans domestically were not a major concern and I did take my eye off the ball on the domestic front which consequently lead to the split. I did sign the agreements but my wife sorted out the deal i simply came home at night and signed everythin. She told me she wanted a split so I moved out and as I was so busy at the time I just contacted the rep again and told her to sort property 2.

In 2004 things changed dramatically my accountants alerted me to a problem relating to my business partner and the limited company went under (this was not the sole reason). I personally paid all those whom were owed money apart from the money proven to have been taken (without authority) by him(which apparently he is still paying). In response to this he was to pay the PAYE and other tax affairs personally so we could level the debt. He did not although this was supervised by my legal advisors at the time and a team of accountants. The Inland revenue asked me to pay all duties owed I refused. I did offer to pay half but my accountants stated it was all or may aswell be nothing. Things got out of hand quickly and to cut a long story short the lifeline of my remaining business's was severed as I could not get the same amount of credit.

I had not missed a payment on anything business or personal in 10 years and even though I could not afford it I still met all payments for a further 18 months whilst I tried to rebuild my business hoping it would all revert back to the 'good times'. This did not materialise and I had to spend all my savings and repaid most of the debt reducing it to around 40k. Once all the savings were gone and money was significantly tighter I had no choice but to ask the CCCS to administer a DMP on my behalf and that is where I was when I joined CAG.

In essence though the reason the personal stuff was left in the cold was there was alot bigger fish to fry at the time but admittedly that still leaves me being guilty of recklessness.

The situation is as I first explained and you will not believe how my life has changed and what has happened to me since that, which I do give myself a break for, for not remembering all those details

It is now in the last few years that I too have wondered how I was so reckless at that time

Again thanks for your help

Exasp

[diddydicky]

Hi DD,

I would like to explain the hazy memory a little if possible as it is hard to understand how an individual cannot remeber specific loans.....

Firstly my circumstances back in 2002 were significantly different than they are today. I had really sucessful business's as sole trader and a limited company directorship with another individual and earnings were fantastic. Cash flow was the problem which is why I took out the loans. I reckon that at some point around that time I had over £250k credit on the sole partnership business's and domeastically (excluding mortgage) plus further loans and credits on the business probably nearly another £150k maybe more. I do not want to sound predantic but the loans domestically were not a major concern and I did take my eye off the ball on the domestic front which consequently lead to the split. I did sign the agreements but my wife sorted out the deal i simply came home at night and signed everythin. She told me she wanted a split so I moved out and as I was so busy at the time I just contacted the rep again and told her to sort property 2.

In 2004 things changed dramatically my accountants alerted me to a problem relating to my business partner and the limited company went under (this was not the sole reason). I personally paid all those whom were owed money apart from the money proven to have been taken (without authority) by him(which apparently he is still paying). In response to this he was to pay the PAYE and other tax affairs personally so we could level the debt. He did not although this was supervised by my legal advisors at the time and a team of accountants. The Inland revenue asked me to pay all duties owed I refused. I did offer to pay half but my accountants stated it was all or may aswell be nothing. Things got out of hand quickly and to cut a long story short the lifeline of my remaining business's was severed as I could not get the same amount of credit.

I had not missed a payment on anything business or personal in 10 years and even though I could not afford it I still met all payments for a further 18 months whilst I tried to rebuild my business hoping it would all revert back to the 'good times'. This did not materialise and I had to spend all my savings and repaid most of the debt reducing it to around 40k. Once all the savings were gone and money was significantly tighter I had no choice but to ask the CCCS to administer a DMP on my behalf and that is where I was when I joined CAG.

In essence though the reason the personal stuff was left in the cold was there was alot bigger fish to fry at the time but admittedly that still leaves me being guilty of recklessness.

The situation is as I first explained and you will not believe how my life has changed and what has happened to me since that, which I do give myself a break for, for not remembering all those details

It is now in the last few years that I too have wondered how I was so reckless at that time

Again thanks for your help

Exasp

 

thanks, and what about the dating of the agreements? did you see him/her do that? how do you know they did or are you assuming this?

[exasperated]

Hi DD,

My main objective is now to track down the everest rep because even for reasons my own sanity I need to know how these documents were dated so.

In regards to her dating the agreement its plain to see from the copies posted in the previous threads that it is not the same handwriting therefore (although I only dealt with her personally) they are not dated by the same person evidentally.

Having read the threads what do you think my options are

Exasp

[pedross]

HI Exasp

 

I have not had time to post my thoughts but will do. In the meantime I don't think its a good idea tracking down the everest rep from 7 years ago just yet I would wait and decide the way forward first.

[diddydicky]

i am sorry to be vague on this one exasperated, but on re reading the thread again i would say that in general terms you only have a limited time to challenge a CO and need VERY good reason after say, a few months for doing so, (although i believe there are circumstances where the window of opportunity can open up for you in this respect);

 

more importantly i think, is the problem of who added the date and when!

 

as i said before , as the accuser it is for you to prove this happened not for the other side to prove they did not.

 

I think also you might be asked by the other side/court why you did not date when you signed yourself, and reference would be made to the fact that a person is held to what he signs and you should have taken care to have dated when you signed

 

sorry to be so pessimistic on this one but i think that unless you can get together with the creditors and resolve the issue , you might find a legal route very challenging (IMO)