Goodison v Yorkshire Bank

[Goodison]

Having sent my first letter to the Yorkshire Bank outlining my intention to claim more than £5,000-worth of 'charges', on 29 June, I received a reply, dated 30 June, this morning.

 

As you can imagine, it details (in what appears to be very precise form), why the charges were reasonable, and on face value would appear to negate my claim...

 

Is this a standard, initial defence on their behalf, or are they getting wise to actions such as mine and beginning to counter them more vigorously?

 

Additionally, even though it doesn't make their case any different to their fellow 'bankers', are the Yorkshire Bank the most aggressive defenders of their charging system?

 

Here is a transcript of their letter, from a service advisor. Is there anything new in this, or shall I just proceed to the second letter right now?

 

* * * * *

 

I refer to your letter of 29 June etc...

 

During this time, the relationship between you and the bank was governed by the bank's standard terms and conditions, provided that:

 

You must obtain the bank's agreement before overdrawing on your account.

If the bank made payments from the account, or paid cheques which were guaranteed by the associated cheque guarantee card when there were insufficient funds available, any overdraft created or any overdraft which exceeded an agreed overdraft limit would be unauthorised.

 

If you drew cheques or authorised or made payments without sufficient money available in your account, taking account of any overdraft limit and allowing for uncleared cheques, the bank might return the payments and made a charge for doing so.

 

Charges and interest applicable to the account were published in the form of tariffs and up-to-date tariffs were available in branches and from time to time enclosed with bank statements.

 

Where appropriate, written details of overdraft charges and debit interest incurred on the account during the previous charging period (ie the previous month) would be sent to you at least 14 days before the charges and interest were deducted from your account.

 

If the account had an unauthorised overdraft, additional charges might be levied which would be debited to the account on the day on which the unauthorised overdraft was created.

 

I would note that the terms and conditions complied with all relevant requirements of the Banking Code.

 

You are responsible for the running of your account and for ensuring that sufficient funds are in your account to meet standing orders, direct debits and cheques which you have created or drawn on the account. As stated in the terms and conditions governing your account with the bank, you are aware that charges will be incurred if insufficient funds are in your account on the dates the payments you instructed are debited. The charges applied to your account were applied in accordance with the terms and conditions, as a result of the operation of your account.

 

Further, the terms and conditions were fair, having regard to the following matters:

 

The cost to the bank of maintaining administrative systems relating to unauthorised overdrafts, unpaid cheques and direct debits and abuse of cheque and debit cards for the purpose of keeping the level of overdrawing under review and controlled as far as possible.

 

The increased risk of loss to the bank arising from such unauthorised transactions and the associated cost of enforcement and recovery systems.

 

The need to operate standard procedures and to set standard charges in order to avoid the substantial costs of individual assessment in relation to each particular case.

 

Taking all of the above into account and having regard to the information that you have given, I am not prepared to refund the charges on your account.

 

I have enclosed for your information, a copy of our internal complaint handling procedures and how to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service etc...

 

If we do not receive a response form you within eight weeks of the date of this letter, your complaint will be considered closed.

 

* * * * *

 

As I am sure anyone who reads this will be aware, the charges they applied were gratuitous in the extreme and simply succeeded in totally exacerbating the situation - making them hundreds of pounds while at the same time making things worse on a daily basis for me.

 

My (small), company had been hit by a £25,000 bad debt and all we wanted from them was some understanding and support. Instead we got £8 a day, £30 a letter and a metaphorical two fingers - coupled with a deliberate refusal to acknowledge the predicament we found ourselves in and help us structure a way out of it, which would NOT have been difficult.

 

They knew exactly what they were doing and squeezed us by the pips in the knowledge that we could do nothing about it... until now?

 

WOULD ANYONE WHO HAS HAD THE PERSEVERANCE TO GET THIS FAR PLEASE ADVISE ME ON WHETHER THEY DO HAVE A VALID DEFENCE, OR ARE THEY JUST BEING AS PEDANTIC AS THEY ALWAYS WERE?

 

Thank you.

[trundlecat]

They're bleating on the same tune as they did to me weeks back. Don't worry, they don't have a leg to stand on.

 

YB are part of some group or other with Australia in the title & they're arrogant, self important, bully boys who regard customers misfortune as an opportunity to profit. This, however, doesn't change the fact that they're in the wrong, you're in the right & they will have no more tendency to want to try & defend illegal charges in the courts than any other bank. At the end of the day all bullies are cowards when you stand up to them.

 

Re sending your 2nd letter now. I think this is a personal preference. Some people send as soon as they recieve a reply, I've personally stuck to my deadlines (I can always then say to the judge that I gave them every opportunity to see the error of their ways).

 

All the best with your claim & keep us posted

TC

[Goodison]

Thank you for the reply.

 

So just their usual holier-than-thou bluff & bluster then.

 

I will take your advice and give them the 14 days I promised, then off with letter number two.

 

They just have no sense of conscience or fair play at all do they?

 

Money's a wonderful thing to have, but they cannot bear for anyone else to have it apart from them.

 

Any more support from anyone else who has faced up to them would be most appreciated.

 

Have they a track record of backing down at the last minutes like everyone else?

[pjdudley69]

I don't think anyone's gone that far yet, to see if they back down at the last minute yet David. And you've got loads of support on here, there are quite a few of us who have got claims on the go at the moment!

[Andy Wade]

Thank you for the reply.

 

So just their usual holier-than-thou bluff & bluster then.

 

I will take your advice and give them the 14 days I promised, then off with letter number two.

 

They just have no sense of conscience or fair play at all do they?

 

Money's a wonderful thing to have, but they cannot bear for anyone else to have it apart from them.

 

Any more support from anyone else who has faced up to them would be most appreciated.

 

Have they a track record of backing down at the last minutes like everyone else?

 

No experience yet, but I'm reading, taking notes and waiting for the day when I get MY money back from them.

I'm still on the 40 day DPA thingy. Day 14 and counting....

Good luck with your claims guys.

[caro]

Nothing new David, blah de blah de blah (yawn).

 

One word of caution though. If you claim over £5,000, it will not go through the small claims court, so you could end up paying the banks costs. Do a search using the word sever and you should find info on how to split your claim to avoid this. Read the FAQ's again as well if in doubt.

[Goodison]

Like many others in here, I received a very prompt, apparently comprehensive reply to my first letter to the YB.

 

It appears that it is just a standard, hopefully-intimidating response however, so I am now proceeding with the second one, giving them 14 days' notice before a claim in court. Indeed, it is liklely to be two claims, as the amount owing is some £5,600 plus intertest.

 

Nevertheless, I am conscious of the fact that the YB are the only bank who do not have appeared to have backed down and re-imbursed anyone yet?

 

Are they the exception to the rule, and if so, am I lilkely to need legal representation if they go ahead and defend the action?

[turt77]

I dont think they're the exception. I reckon there are just fewer people claiming from them than the bigger banks.

 

They will definately file a defence against the claim and there are a few of us waiting for court dates at the minute so just keep your eyes peeled and we'll soon see what they actually do.

 

The defences they have entered are fairly amateurish so I for one would like mine to go all the way.

[Goodison]

Having received a lengthy standard (first line of defence) reply to my first letter to the Yorkshire Bank, I have now had a letter from their Glasgow-based customer relations department in response to my letter before action.

 

It reads:

 

'As you will appreciate, I need to make investigations into the points you have raised.

 

'In the meantime, I thank you for your patience in this matter and I will contact you as soon as my investigations are complete.'

 

I am claiming more than £5,000 and the deadline for court action is tomorrow - so this sounds like a holding tactic to me?

 

Has anyone else received the same reply? And if so, what happened next?

 

I am not prepared to wait while they play for time and intend giving them until 2.00pm on Friday to get back to me before I proceed with a court claim.

 

Any thoughts anyone?

[dan-rides-bikes]

yup - court time

[Goodison]

Wow: things are moving at a pace now.

 

I faxed a letter back to Glasgow last night, re-iterating that I would wait no longer than 2.00pm tomorrow (Friday 11th), before filing court papers - and received a phone call at 11.00am this morning.

 

Apparently, the woman who I spoke to has not yet had sight of my statements to do a full analysis and was wanting to delay (for an unspecified time).

 

When I said I wasn't prepared to wait and reminded her that she must be aware of what was happening at other banks, she offered me a 50% refund, stating that was the maximum they would be prepared to make.

 

I said that was not sufficient and gave her until next Wednesday (16th), to come back with something more acceptable, or it WOULD go to court.

 

It is something of a dilemma though, as 50% (£2,800), is not to be scoffed at.

 

However, banks do NOT give money away and to receive such an offer clearly indicates they are seeking to cut their losses.

 

Do I gamble, or take the money?

[dan-rides-bikes]

.........its not a gamble imho - its just a lengthy process with YB

[isie1980]

DO NOT ACCEPT 50%!

 

File the court claim and you'll get the full amount. It doesn't matter how long it takes, as 1 month (or whatever) ago you didn't even realise you could get this money back so you can't need it right now!

The 50% offer is tempting, but how peed off would you be to accept that and see the rest of us win back the full amount?

 

Be patient and you'll win.

 

By the way I got the same stalling letter from Glasgow saying they wanted to review/consider my claim. Unfortunately for them it arrived one day after I filed my claim so I'll file it carefully with all the other correspondance but otherwise ignore it.

[Goodison]

I have documented my progress with the Yorkshire bank in previous threads, culminating in them offering me a 50% settlement the day before I was due to file a court claim.

 

I wanted more and gave them time to come back with a revised offer, but they have not. So time to go to court and MAKE them respond.

 

However, I am claiming £5,600 (plus interest of approximately £1,560) on my former business account back to 2000 and a further £495 (plus around £135 interest) on my personal account going back to the same starting point. These will be added to by court costs too.

 

I am mindful that there is a £5,000 'ceiling' on claims though, so do I process the first £5,000 on one claim, then twin the balance of £600 with the £495 from my personal account on a second - or do I need to do three?

 

Secondly, it appears they still try and call your bluff right up until court, with a solicitor attending to initially defend the claim? Is there enough on this site to enable me to put a good case to the magistrate if I am required to do so, or would I be better being represented by a solicitor?

 

The reason I ask is, although most magistrates compensate for a layman's ignorance of the ins and outs of court procedure, some do not - and I would hate a smart arse solicitor to get the one that clearly gives him 'home advantage'. I am sure you all know what I mean...

 

In short, if I am asked to state a comprehensive case at the hearing, can I virtually script it from here?

 

PS: the bank's offer of 50% was clearly based on my initial claim of £5,600. I counter-proposed that I would be happy with £4,000 (which co-incidentally will eventually represent 50% of my total claim with interest and charges).

 

The fact they did not reply has surprised me. This lack of common courtesy (after I was kind enough to extend my deadline), has angered me somewhat. Having not really wanted to go this far and instead settle things amicably, I now cannot wait to make them repay the full amount.

 

It really is time to end their holier-than-thou arrogance.

[Yasmin]

David, Was very interested in your thread. I am not qualified to answer your questions, sure someone else will pick up on it. However regarding your comment"home advantage", I can appreciate exactly what you mean:rolleyes:

 

I was in court earlier this month, case adjourned http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/944-egg_charges-default.html

The judge was clearly, in that category. So much so,that the defendant asked if he could BOOK him for the next trial.:o The judge did not bat an eyelid, lol, simply replied that he was a deputy judge, so it would not be poss. However,he could be the one at the next hearing..... I must tell you that I was quite confident before I went in. So, really know you have a valid point. It's not easy to go up against a barrister & solicitor, particularly if you feel the odds are stacked against you from the beginning. I think you could go in there with as much info., proof, and confidence as you like but if that happens it could destroy you. I did not feel great when I walked from the court that day, even though it was not the case (adjournment) and I felt my opponents couldn't believe their luck!! Just glad it was adjourned that day.................

[barracad]

You will need to do 2 claims - one for your business account £5600 and one for your personal account £495. The laws relevant to businesses and consumers are different so there is no way you can combine the two claims.

 

If you split the £5600 into two claims then you risk having your second claim thrown out so best to do it as one claim in my opinion, but then it will be allocated to Fast Track - you need to do some reasing around and make sure you understand what that means before you submit your claim.

[Goodison]

Having declined an weak offer from their head office, I am going to put Yorkshire Bank in court on Wednesday. However, the total of my business and personal account claims, including interest, comes to approximately £8,000.

 

So far I have read differing opinions as to whether it is best to put a ceiling of £5,000 on and claim the rest separately, or go for the whole lot at once.

 

Consequently, could someone please advise me definitively on the following:

 

i) Is there any advantage to splitting the claims into sub-£5000 amounts?

 

ii) If it is advisable to split into sub-£5,000 amounts, does that include interest, or just the core amount (which interest would then be added to as part of a total claim)?

 

ii) Can I make a total claim, combining the business and personal acounts, or do they need to be filed separately?

 

Thank you in advance.

[ozzywizard]

I think you are better doing them seperate because at the small claims court your limit for claim is 5000.

[Goodison]

Thank you. So if the small claims limit is £5,000, what is the alternative route for a full claim of £8,000 and what are the disadvantages?

[ozzywizard]

Alternative is the normal courts, this can be very costly and Civil Procedure Rules will apply. If you lose and bank wins (unlikely) you gotta pay costs the Bank has had to pay out to defend your claim .

 

On a good side if you win, , your costs for your own legal representation you can claim which you wouldn't get on the Small Claims route.

 

Gamble is much bigger.

It really is your choice, and hopefully the bank will settle before any of this happens.

[Goodison]

I am submitting a moneyclaim to Yorkshire Bank (today if possible), but the total I am claiming spans three accounts. Can I amalgamate them, or do I have to claim separately on each one?

 

Thank you.

[ozzywizard]

As long as all 3 accounts are in your name then you can put them together. Its you taking them to court not your account so you can add the charges up as one claim. Be carefull though not to go above 5000.

Good luck.

[Goodison]

First of three separate Moneyclaims issued on 21st September (some £3,500 including interest).

 

I will let you all know what the bank's response is - having already declined a completely inadequate pre-court settlement figure.

 

Might need some help later if they decide to contest it, although I will keep myself up-to-date with the usual routine as much as I can.

 

Stick with me everyone please. I'll need your support more than ever now if they decide to get awkward.

[caro]

I have merged your threads to make it easier to follow your progress. Just stick to your guns and you will be fine. If you have not done so please pm a mod with your claim details to post in the litigation in progress forum.

[Goodison]

Claim (for £3,633.63 in total, including interest and court costs), issued on 21 September.

 

On checking online this morning, it was acknowledged yesterday (27) and I am told by the Moneyclaim helpdesk that I must give them until 11 October before requesting a judgment.

 

I wonder what will happen next? Even though Yorkshire Bank now appear to realise their position (like all their counterparts'), is indefensible and have begun paying out, should I still expect a defence, or an 'allocation questionnaire'?

 

If so, there appear to be templates to deal with both delaying tactics on here?