Credit Cards v Muffintop cca's

[Muffintop]

Taken a little look at the incomplete sar that m and s sent, the account was definately active in 2004 which means the alledged copy of the cca they sent was pony. Bit scared by these lot as my debt over 5k and would mean fastrack and costs if loose, hence have been continuing to pay them whilst writing.

 

Noticed on the sar that the card number differs from the one I have at the moment and also that when the account was first opened it was a Smart Card... does anyone know what a smart card was (was it a store card) as the card I have states its a mastercard.

[Muffintop]

There you go muffintop .....

 

NON- COMPLIANCE WITH Subject Access Request

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/6986-data-protection-act-non.html#post38561

Hya Jonny, had a look at the templates above but there is nothing when MBNA have said they will not send me my sar request until I send passport or similiar id and a copy of my true signature..... what can I send? I can see from template library there is suggestion that you can start a county court claim but they havent said they wont let me have it, just wont let me have it till I give them my signature.......

[bigegg]

Hya Jonny, had a look at the templates above but there is nothing when MBNA have said they will not send me my Subject Access Request request until I send passport or similiar id and a copy of my true signature..... what can I send? I can see from template library there is suggestion that you can start a county court claim but they havent said they wont let me have it, just wont let me have it till I give them my signature.......

 

There's a letter floating round on here which (paraphrases) something along the lines of:

 

"Well you send me demands for this (alleged!) debt, so you must know it's me. Or are you breaking the OFT guidelines on debt collection by chasing someone for a debt when you're not sure it's the right person?"

[johnnymitch]

Signature not required

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/139881-hsbc-want-signature.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/161862-r-subject-access-request.html?highlight=Signature#post1738047

 

Have a look at these links muffintop ...... they do not require a signature - this is a typical time-wasting tactic ..... tell them they have x days to reply to your original SAR or you will report them to the Information Commissioner's Office for non -compliance .....

[Muffintop]

Had a look at thread tnx jonny but it doesnt give a template for my circs where mbna have said they have my sar but i cant have it till i have provided my signature.. need to send them something to say this isnt allowed under .... lah lah lah case law or section whatever of the whatever act or ok I will take you to court as you have ........ dont know not complied with dpa i guess but really stuck as how to move forward on this one

[foolishgirl]

I've had this problem with creditors too Muffintop.

 

In fact I still have one outstanding that I reported to the ICO almost 12 months ago & they still haven't even found time to look at my original correspondence despite several reminders! I've escalated it to a full blown complaint this week & will notify my MP if that doesn't do the trick. I don't see why I should have to go to the trouble of court orders etc. when this is the job that the ICO are paid from the taxpayer's purse to do.

 

Anyway my solution now with other OCs for an easy life is to sign the doc. they want with my left hand then write through in caps 'MY SIGNATURE'. That way it can't be copied & pasted onto another doc. & you get your SAR without delay.

[freakyleaky]

Use this letter MT. Just edit to suit.

 

 

Dear Sirs,

 

RE Account NO XXXXXXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/2008 the contents of which are noted

In your letter you make reference to requiring my signed authorisation /specimen signature** before you comply. I draw your attention to the fact that the Consumer Credit Act 1974 does not require that i supply you a copy of my signature before you comply with my S77/78** request.

 

If it is for Data Protection purposes then i can happily supply you with documentation to substantiate my identity to you.

 

However please note that to date you have happily sent statements and correspondence containing extensive sensitive private information to my address. I have to ask if you are concerned that you are corresponding with the correct person why has it taken so long to raise this?

 

As you are aware, disclosing data without adequate checks of identity is contrary to the 7th principal of data protection, listed in schedule 1 of the Data protection Act 1998:

 

7. Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.

 

My request for a true copy of my credit agreement under section 77/78** was made on xx/xx/2008 and the 12 working days for your compliance expire on xx/xx/2008. I note that there is no provision that removes the requirements of the act to provide this information on time, even if you are unsure of my identity.

 

I look forward to receiving the documentation requested

 

Regards

 

Print dont Sign

[foolishgirl]

Muffintop's request was a SAR I think freakyleaky.

 

It's a good letter but in my experience doesn't work with some OCs, they just use your non-sig. as an excuse not to comply with your request. Supplying a signature - doesn't seem to matter whose, I've used OH to sign my name on some applications! - as long as it can't be copied seems to do the trick. They'd have a hard job in court to prove a copy & paste version of my name signed by OH on my CCA was a genuine agreement wouldn't they? And I would find it very easy to show it as fraud - criminal offence I think.

[freakyleaky]

Muffintop's request was a Subject Access Request I think freakyleaky.

 

yes but you can ammend for sar easy enough.

 

I do however like your idea better.

[Muffintop]

hmm I think I will write the letter to begin with but will have to take out the sec 77/78 request Freaky and Foolish as dont these relate to ccas and not dpa request.

If that doesnt scare them along with complaint to info commissioner and threat of court then will have to sucumb but i would much rather take them to court for non compliance and would like to find someone else who has done this. there must be someone, does anyone know of any cagger who has dont this? if not think will start a new thread to try to encourage someone to come forward....

[Muffintop]

Going to send this in the morning, unless anyone wiser much wiser than I says there is something missing or something needs taking out...

 

A Hughes[/font]

Data COMPLIANCE OFFICER[/font]

MBNA EUROPE CARD SERVICES LTD

Information Comissioner

Dear Mr Hughes

Thank you for your letter dated 22nd January 09 the contents of which are noted

In your letter you make reference to requiring my signed authorisation specimen signature and copy of personal documentation in the form of driving license or passport before you will comply with my Subject Access Request under Data Protection Act 1988.

I draw your attention to the fact that the Data Protection Act 1988 does not require that I supply you a copy of my signature before you comply with my Subject Access Request.You are clearly aware that to date you have happily sent statements and correspondence containing extensive sensitive private information to my address. I have to ask if you are concerned that you are corresponding with the correct person why has it taken so long to raise this?

As you are aware, disclosing data without adequate checks of identity is contrary to the 7th principal of data protection, listed in schedule 1 of the Data protection Act 1998:

7. Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data

 

My request for my Subject Access Request containing all written records held by you regarding myself with MBNA plus all disclosure of any notes, telephone calls made by me or your staff at call centres in Uk and offshore, any defaults issued by you and copies of any previous statements was made on 3.1.09. I also requested any renewed signed and fully executed copies of the credit card agreements to include all terms and conditions from the time the agreement was signed as laid down in S85 of the Consumer Credit Act.

 

You now have until 13th February 2009 to comply with my request within the set down 40 day period or I will have no choice but to take further action and apply to County Court for an order to enforce compliance under Sec 7 of the Data Protection Act, together with damages at the discretion of the court. I will also advise the Information Commissioner by way of official complaint.

I note that there is no provision in the Data Protection Act that removes the requirements of the act to provide this information on time, even if you are unsure of my identity.

 

I look forward to receiving the documentation requested in the next 19 days so we can resolve this issue

Edited January 25, 2009 by Muffintop
cleaned it up

[foolishgirl]

 

I note that there is no provision in the Data Protection Act that removes the requirements of the act to provide this information on time, even if you are unsure of my identity.

 

 

The letter's fine apart from this bit. A Data Controller has to satisfy him/herself that he is sending the info. to the correct person before he releases it. This para is therefore not strictly true as he can't send the info within the 40 days if he is not sure of your identity.

 

Good luck with it - MBNA usually have deaf ears & can't read.

[johnnymitch]

If they have been blithely sending correspondence to you at the address given , then they must be pretty sure of your identity .... as I said muffintop this is a time-wasting ploy which they have used many times with many people but they usually produce following a letter such as the above ......

 

I would say - go for it .......

[Muffintop]

tnx guys will see what it brings

[Muffintop]

iv had a letter from mbna in it it states

for the avoidance of doubt, the consumer credit act 1974 does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in dispute.

 

 

If this is true a lot of the letters placing account in dispute by caggers is worthless. can someone comment pse

[Audreygreeneyes]

if they are unsure of your IDthen how can they persue the debt?

 

my resposne ot that letter would be

 

I acknoweldge receipt of your letter dated 12.34.56 and draw your attention to the following.

 

for the avoidance of doubt, for you to progress with collection activity on an account, you must be certain that you are persuing the correct party.

 

It is clear by your communications that youa re not sure of this and shoudl you pass details of a person or person onto 3rd party agencies without clarifying their ID you could possibly be in breach of the data protection act.

 

Now you have thus far failed to comply with the cca request, the 40 day period has now expired and you are in point of fact commiting an offence.

 

I have treid to be as reasonable as possible with regards this matter and your nocompliance but feel you ahve left me no alternatiive but to seek professional intervention in this matter..

 

Yours Disgustedly....

 

or somethign along those lines....

 

Auds

[bigegg]

I'd send them something along the lines of:

 

Dear Morons.

I refer to your letters of

and .

 

Please clarify your position in this matter.

 

If you are unsure of my identity, then you are in breach of the OFT guidelines on Debt Collection sections 2.8a and 2.8b:

 

a.

sending demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that

they are the debtor in question, for example, threatening debt recovery

action to 'the occupier' or sending a payment demand to all people sharing

the same name/date of birth as a debtor in the hope that contact with the

correct debtor will be made.

 

b.

disclosing debt details to an individual when it is uncertain that they are

the debtor in question, for example, disclosing details to 'the occupier' of

an address.

 

In which case, I will make a complaint to the Office of Fair Trading under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2007,.

 

 

OR:

 

You ARE sure of my identity, in which case you are in default of my legitimate request under the Data Protection Act 1998, which you received on , in which case I shall be making a complaint to the Information Commisioner's Office.

 

 

 

 

For avoidance of any doubt:

 

If you fail to respond satisfactorily to my questions above, then:

 

1. I will NOT be making any further payments to this ALLEGED debt.

 

2. I will make complaints to OFT, Information Commisioner's Office, Trading Standards, Financial Ombudman Service, and other agencies as I see fit.

 

3. I will not hesitate to escalate my complaints against your company to

the police, my local MP, and the press as neccessary.

 

IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS LETTER, YOU SHOULD SEEK LEGAL ADVICE

[johnnymitch]

Hi auburn , just a point for clarification -

 

Now you have thus far failed to comply with the cca request, the 40 day period has now expired and you are in point of fact commiting an offence.

 

Am I right in thinking it's only 12 days for a CCA - 40 days for a SAR ?

[bigegg]

It's 12 WORKING days for a CCA request (+2 for delivery if you didn't get a receipt). - It used to be + 1 calendar month (so around 42-43 days) for an offence, but this was repealed by the 2006 amendments.

 

It's 40 days for SAR, but I don't think it's an *offence* at that point, just grounds for a complaint to Info. Commisioner, and court action to force compliance.

[Muffintop]

Guys, think Iv mislead you all with my last on thread..

I managed to get my sar request sent within 40 day period by perseverance and quoting parts of the dpa... they sent it special delivery. i actually rang them up went through security with a numpty then got the numpty to put it on my file that i had cleared security this worked

 

My post above about the avoid confusion was in a letter following my cca request in november.. pointing out that they are actually allowed to still persue the debt when the account is in dispute.. this was my query as when we have sent standard the account is now in official dispute as you have not complied with my request the splurge we are all putting is saying you may not continue with collection activity or pass the debt etc etc, this seems to not be the case.. sorry for confusion

[bigegg]

section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Subsection 1 is the actual right to receive in 12 days.

 

So, I suppose, they are correct, in their own tiny little minds.

 

I like this (from a letter I wrote for intrum justitia):

 

On 31st October 2007 I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8.

 

I included a postal order for £1 to cover any administration fee.

 

You acknowledged receipt on 13th November 2007

 

You state in your letter of 26th January that you have “referred the matter” to your clients, and a copy of the CCA was issued to me on 3rd January.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.

 

I have not received any paperwork regarding this alleged debt from either yourselves or your clients, and as such

YOU REMAIN IN DEFAULT OF MY REQUEST, and have been since 23rd November.

 

 

 

 

 

FOR AVOIDANCE OF ANY DOUBT:

 

You, and your clients, remain in default of my legal request.

Until I have received documents as detailed above, no further payments will be made.

 

Further requests for payment will be treated as harassment under

Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

and

Protection from Harassment Act 1997 section 3

as well as a breach of the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines,

and may be reported to the relevant enforcement agencies

[bigegg]

There's also OFT debt collection Guidelines 2.8K:

 

(Examples of unfair practices are as follows):

not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or

disputed debt.

 

This is an offence under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading regulations (2007)

[Muffintop]

Nice one .. trading standards have taken on my complaint I will scan their response quite a detailed letter and post it up.

[Muffintop]

MADE A COMPLAINT TO TRADING STANDARDS RE NON COMPLIANCE OF SENDING MY CCA AND ONGOING HARASSMENT FROM MBNA AND BC.

BELOW IS THERE REPLY WHICH THEY ARE INVESTIGATING. THOUGHT YOU MAY LIKE TO READ THEIR TAKE AND FIND ANY FAULTS IN THEIR REPLY

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o.../TRADSTAND.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...TRADSTAND2.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...TRADSTAND3.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...TRADSTAND4.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...TRADSTAND5.jpg

[johnnymitch]

Well done ,Muffintop

 

That is a useful piece of literature ...... shows the interpretation TSA puts on Creditors and DCAs responsibilities............ could be very helpful to a lot of people in the future .... hope you don't mind me copying it ..

 

I haven't had a chance to assimilate it all yet , but it looks pretty good to me ,from a debtor's point of view ........

 

Thanks for posting it ........

Thanks ,