NAT WEST will not return my PPI

[Maggiebroom]

Peterbard

 

You are a sweetheart. I had an idea they were trying to con me and I am sure now that your answers will pull the rug out from under them.

 

Thank you for permission to use some excerpts from your letter. I shall compose and post a reply asap.

It always makes me feel better when I know what I am replying to. This legal jargon, although complicated, does eventually make sense, especially when helped by people like yourself.

 

No wonder lawyers are all rich. Well most of them anyhow

 

maggiebroom

[hellhasnofury]

Peterbard

 

You are a sweetheart. I had an idea they were trying to con me and I am sure now that your answers will pull the rug out from under them.

 

Thank you for permission to use some excerpts from your letter. I shall compose and post a reply asap.

It always makes me feel better when I know what I am replying to. This legal jargon, although complicated, does eventually make sense, especially when helped by people like yourself.

 

No wonder lawyers are all rich. Well most of them anyhow

 

maggiebroom

 

No sorry, I would not say Peter is a sweetheart, he is a good damn saint and a live saver. Thank you peter:-D

[Maggiebroom]

Hi again Hellhasnofury

 

here is the reply I have put together with Peterbards help and your wonderful encouragement.

 

Thank you for your letter dated 16th July 2007 in response to the queries I had about the response to my earlier request made under section 78 of the consumer credit act.

 

I am afraid that you still have not supplied the information requested in said act and therefore are still in default.

 

The request is for post contractual information as regulated by section 180 of the act; the regulation you speak of is contained within Statutory Instruments 1983/1557 which reads:

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

As you can see the only omission allowed by this regulation is the signature box of the Debtor/ Hirer, all other aspects of form and content including prescribed terms, cancellation details etc. are required in order to fill the requirements of a ‘true copy’.

 

Regarding the enforceability issue due to incorrect pre-contractual form and content:

 

As per section 127(3) of the act the minimum requirement for a court to consider enforcing a agreement of this type(Running account Credit) is that it should have the Debtor/ Hirer’s signature and all the prescribed terms contained in Statutory instruments 1983/1553 Schedule 6; As directed by section 60 of the Act

• Credit limit• Rate of interest • Repayments

If any of these items are missing then a court cannot enforce any agreement made and regulated by the Act prior to April 6th 2007.The ‘true copy’ should also be legible, section 61(1)©, which the alleged copy you sent me clearly was not.

The absence of all other aspects of the agreement relating to form and content as defined in the Agreement Regulations (1983/1553) render the contract enforceable only by order of the court.

 

I remind you that you were already in default when I received the copy of the alleged application/agreement with your letter dated 22nd June 200, as the original request was sent to you by recorded delivery on the 14th May 2007, and signed for on the 15th May 2007. Any interest or charges that have been applied to this account during this period or since will be null and void.

Your claims from your letter date 16th July 2007, still do not alter the fact that there are discrepancies to this matter under section 85 of the CCA Act 1974, which I again quote below. My credit-token was renewed in September 2005, but a true copy of the properly executed agreement was not supplied to me then. Technically an offence was committed in 2005 and is still in force.

 

S. 85 Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

The credit agreement is therefore improperly executed, and as a consequence is irredeemably un-enforceable: (Wilson v First County Trust CA). Can you please confirm that the ‘credit agreement’/application you recently sent to me is the documentation you are relying on in this disagreement.

I enclose a separate paper to be used as a statuary notice under section10 of the data Protection Act 1998.

Should you fail to respond within 14 days, I will expect this to mean that your company agree to remove all such data. I look forward to your final decision on this complaint within 14 days. This should include your proposed actions in relation to the lack of a regulated credit agreement.

Yours faithfully

What do you think?

I eagerly await anyones opinion.

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

Still waiting

[conar686]

Its good to go - I'd post the letter if you haven't already.

 

MAC

[Maggiebroom]

Hi Conar

 

I posted the reply on the 21st, and still have not had a response.

However what with the post strikes etc. our post is completely off the wall, so I am expecting a reply by the weekend. Lets see what they have to say.

 

maggiebroom

[conar686]

MB

 

If they are anything like Beneficial the will take weeks to respond with a letter that says they are investigating & will get back to you in ten days or some other period.

 

Give them 2 working weeks & send a reminder would be my advice. If you PM me your email address I'll fwd the letter I sent to Beneficial

[Maggiebroom]

Still no reply to my letter but I suspect that may be due to the postal strikes as I read that millions pf letters are held up because of the work to rule.

[Maggiebroom]

Nat West how now replied regarding the section 10 notice of the data Protection Act1998.

 

"Our position is that the moneys you owe under the agreement are properly due and payable. The default notice was properly served and your failure to remedy the default within the prescribed period resulted in our reporting the default to credit reference agencies. This processing of your personal data was in accordance with the consent you gave as referred to in the first paragraph of your notice. We consider that our processing of your personal data is fair, lawful and warranted in the circumstances.

I would inform you that, given the processing of your data was consented to by you, you cannot retrospectively withdraw that consent after the processing has been carried out, we do not accept your notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and do not intend to comply with it.

Your notice is given under Section 12 but this section relates to 'automated decision-making'. I don't see the relevance of Section 12 to the matters you describe in the notice.

I trust the above clarifies matters for you."

 

This was Nat Wests reply to my section 10 notice.

 

I need some advice on this as this reply refers to the letter I sent them on 20th July

( see above post #66 with letter sent to them) I have no idea where section 12 came into the scenario as I never mentioned it.

 

What should be my reply or what is my next step? It seems they do not intend to write anything with answers to my claims. I suspect they need me to make the next move, but I don't know what that is.

Can anyone explain to me what the reference to Section 12 is, and what should be my next move?

 

Please have a look someone.

 

maggiebroom

 

 

 

[Maggiebroom]

I am fed up with pussy footing around with Nat West and I have put together the following letter (with a lot of help from my CAG friends).

 

It has no sections or law quotes in it. Just the simple facts.

 

With reference to your letter dated 2nd August 2007.

On (14th May 2007) I sent you a request under s77/78 CCA for a true copy of the executed credit agreement and the terms & conditions that relate to this alleged debt.

 

To date you have failed to comply with your statutory obligations as you have only sent me an illegible copy of an initial application form, and a recent copy of your terms & conditions.

 

Since the statutory time limit for supplying me with the correct copy document has now been exceeded, I must advise you that you are not entitled to enforce any alleged agreement against myself. I therefore expect no further communication from you in respect of this matter.

 

Should you nevertheless choose to initiate legal proceedings against me, I will expect to receive, with any Letter before Action, a copy of the document that you will be relying on as proof that a properly executed agreement, complying in all respects with the form and content requirements of the CCA 1974 in respect of this alleged debt.

Yours faithfully

 

They will not enter into any more correspondence anyway so I think it is about time I forced their hand.

 

What do you lot think? I am sure someone will tell me whether or not I am doing the right thing.

Many thanks in advance

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

Anyone PLEASE????

 

maggiebroom

[hellhasnofury]

I am fed up with pussy footing around with Nat West and I have put together the following letter (with a lot of help from my CAG friends).

 

It has no sections or law quotes in it. Just the simple facts.

 

With reference to your letter dated 2nd August 2007.

 

On (14th May 2007) I sent you a request under s77/78 CCA for a true copy of the executed credit agreement and the terms & conditions that relate to this alleged debt.

 

To date you have failed to comply with your statutory obligations as you have only sent me an illegible copy of an initial application form, and a recent copy of your terms & conditions.

 

Since the statutory time limit for supplying me with the correct copy document has now been exceeded, I must advise you that you are not entitled to enforce any alleged agreement against myself. I therefore expect no further communication from you in respect of this matter.

 

Should you nevertheless choose to initiate legal proceedings against me, I will expect to receive, with any Letter before Action, a copy of the document that you will be relying on as proof that a properly executed agreement, complying in all respects with the form and content requirements of the CCA 1974 in respect of this alleged debt.

 

Yours faithfully

 

They will not enter into any more correspondence anyway so I think it is about time I forced their hand.

 

What do you lot think? I am sure someone will tell me whether or not I am doing the right thing.

Many thanks in advance

 

maggiebroom

 

Hello

 

Go Maggie go. I am in a similair position to yourself with nw cc. I have reported them to the oft and I am about to make the request again but quoting the oft ref no.

 

I will be sending a copy of your letter to them as well.

[Maggiebroom]

Hello

 

Go Maggie go. I am in a similair position to yourself with nw cc. I have reported them to the oft and I am about to make the request again but quoting the oft ref no.

 

I will be sending a copy of your letter to them as well.

 

Hi Hell

 

You may use my letter with pleasure. If they climb down over the CCA I will then go the whole way to get my default removed. No CCA - no agreenment-: no agreement - no processing my data.

I haven't as yet complained to the OFT. Lost faith in them since the bank charges thingy, and lots of people have said they are useless.

 

I thought you had dealt with your Nat West one and that it was over and won. Send me the link to or the name of your thread so I can go through it all.

 

Off shopping now so will catch up later

 

maggiebroom :grin:

[hellhasnofury]

Hi Hell

 

You may use my letter with pleasure. If they climb down over the CCA I will then go the whole way to get my default removed. No CCA - no agreenment-: no agreement - no processing my data.

I haven't as yet complained to the OFT. Lost faith in them since the bank charges thingy, and lots of people have said they are useless.

 

I thought you had dealt with your Nat West one and that it was over and won. Send me the link to or the name of your thread so I can go through it all.

 

Off shopping now so will catch up later

 

maggiebroom

 

Hello Maggie,

My fight with the nw is far from over:lol: I am after them for every dealing I have ever had with them. I blame them for my indebtedness. The started the spiral which lead me financial ruin. I loathe them with a passion. If there is one of their ads on the telly I have to turn it off to stop me swearing.

 

I have been successful in reclaiming back over £7,000 in mis-sold ppi for one loan. I have the others to look into:-D

 

I have now stopped paying them for the loan.(no credit agreement) and I am awaiting their response (maybe a court issue)

 

Now the nw cc They have sent me the same as you an illegable application form and I sent a non=compliance letter and asked them to send me one I could read, to see if contained any prescribed terms. I received a very snotty letter from them, saying I was under some mic-conceptions as to what they had to send. and they would not comply unless told to by the enforcement authories I had mentioned. I sent a letter of complain to the oft and they responded back asking me permission to disclose my complaint. Not heard any thing back from the nasty west cc. So I can feel another letter coming on.:grin:

[Maggiebroom]

( I received a very snotty letter from them, saying I was under some mic-conceptions as to what they had to send. and they would not comply unless told to by the enforcement authories I had mentioned. I sent a letter of complain to the oft and they responded back asking me permission to disclose my complaint.)

 

Exactly the same as the letter they sent me. When will these people realize that we are not the downtrodden unwise consumers that we used to be. Because of sites like this one we are now much more informed and fighting back. they cannot blind us with science anymore. We are not so clueless now.

 

Where on the OFT site do you go to make a complaint, or what address do you have for them?

I have decided to go ahead with the complaint proceedures as they obviously are not going to write to me anymore. I also have to fight the default soon and I want to get some more info on that before I go ahead to get it removed.

 

The only thing that frightens me is getting the info wrong and making a complete twit of myself by quoting the wrong legislation or whatever.

 

After all we are dabbling with legal issues here and not being trained is a bit intimidating, so getting it right is absolutely essential.

 

So that OFT address will be very useful to me. The above letter is going off on Monday. I might also add a bit about them not having a properly executed CCA and therefore not able to process my details to CRA's.

 

The funny thing is I don't really care if I have got a bad credit record. I real;ly don't want anymore credit at my time of life. It got me in enough trouble when I was working, so as a pensioner I don't need it.

 

good luck with your letter (let me know the name of the thread so I can read it myself)

 

Quick laugh for you. As you know my hubby is having the same trouble with Cap One as me. Lots of phone calls etc. This morning in the post he got a new credit card. I know unbelievable isn't it. No CCA with it either. Clodhoppers I call them

 

Maggiebroom

 

 

[hellhasnofury]

( I received a very snotty letter from them, saying I was under some mic-conceptions as to what they had to send. and they would not comply unless told to by the enforcement authories I had mentioned. I sent a letter of complain to the oft and they responded back asking me permission to disclose my complaint.)

 

Exactly the same as the letter they sent me. When will these people realize that we are not the downtrodden unwise consumers that we used to be. Because of sites like this one we are now much more informed and fighting back. they cannot blind us with science anymore. We are not so clueless now.

 

Where on the OFT site do you go to make a complaint, or what address do you have for them?

I have decided to go ahead with the complaint proceedures as they obviously are not going to write to me anymore. I also have to fight the default soon and I want to get some more info on that before I go ahead to get it removed.

 

The only thing that frightens me is getting the info wrong and making a complete twit of myself by quoting the wrong legislation or whatever.

 

After all we are dabbling with legal issues here and not being trained is a bit intimidating, so getting it right is absolutely essential.

 

So that OFT address will be very useful to me. The above letter is going off on Monday. I might also add a bit about them not having a properly executed CCA and therefore not able to process my details to CRA's.

 

The funny thing is I don't really care if I have got a bad credit record. I real;ly don't want anymore credit at my time of life. It got me in enough trouble when I was working, so as a pensioner I don't need it. :D

 

good luck with your letter (let me know the name of the thread so I can read it myself)

 

Quick laugh for you. As you know my hubby is having the same trouble with Cap One as me. Lots of phone calls etc. This morning in the post he got a new credit card. I know unbelievable isn't it. No CCA with it either. Clodhoppers I call them :D

 

Maggiebroom

 

 

 

Hello Maggie,

 

Is your husband going to use the cc:lol:

Here is the letter I sent the oft it has the address on it,

 

Office of Fair Trading

OFT Enquiries

Fleetbank House2-6 Salisbury Square

London

EC4Y 8JX

 

8th June 2007

Dear Sir or Madam

FAILURE by National Westminster Bank plc Under Sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Account No.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

As is my right under Sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, I wrote to the National Westminster Bank on 6th March 2007 requesting a true, signed (legible) copy of any credit agreement (inc statements) that exists in relation to the above account, including the statutory fee of £1.00.

On the 20th April 2007, I received a illegible copy of a ?application form. I have written back to the National Westminster Bank to request a copy of this document, which I can read, but they are refusing to provide this document and have returned my cheque for £1 back to me twice. I stated that they had failed to comply with my request and would be reporting the matter to the enforcement authorities.

 

They have quoted in their letter to me dated the 31st May 2007. “ I can advise the information sent to you in our letter dated the 20th April 2007 complied with your request for information made under S87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act. Should you disagree, I await further correspondence from the enforcement authorities you have referred this matter on to.

Under the terms of the above Act, The National Westminster Bank had 12 working days to provide the requested document and a further calendar month to rectify this default. Both of these deadlines have now expires on the 23rd of March 2007 and 23rd of April 2007 respectively. and I have received only a application form that I cannot read.

 

I have again sent a letter on the 16th May 2007 to National Westminster Bank requesting that they send me a legible copy of the credit agreement of this above account disputing the account and stating that any legal action proposed by them will be vigorously defended as I believe that they may have committed an offence under the CCA punishable by a level 4 fine.

This led me to only one conclusion that no signed credit agreement exists in relation to this account. An agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, is completely unenforceable, even in a court of law.

 

Additionally, as there has never been any regulated agreement in relation to this account, I maintain that National Westminster Bank do not have my consent to process my data and have requested that they remove all data referring to them from the records of all 3 Credit reference agencies. This they have refused to do so.

 

With respect to the above may, I respectfully request that you begin an investigation into the failures of The National Westminster Bank and in the meantime your comments, advice & guidance in the above would be much appreciated.

I enclose copies of correspondence between myself and the Natwest bank for your information.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

Encs.

 

 

[Maggiebroom]

Hello Maggie,

 

Is your husband going to use the cc:lol:

 

Here is the letter I sent the oft it has the address on it,

 

/quote]

 

My hubby has already CC'd Crap One on 3rd July and so far has heard nothing. Just these cursed phone calls. I have just added them up to over 45 calls . And the idiots sent him a new credit card.

I said he should send it back with a polite message to tell them where to put it. (sideways) :D

 

Many thanks for the letter. That is just what I need when it has been suitably altered for my own situation etc.

 

Off to watch casualty now after steak supper.

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

Another update

 

Since I sent the letter from post#85 above I have not heard a word from Nat West just another statement with humungous payments on it. :o

 

They stand more chance of getting struck by lightening.

 

When I first started all this I got pangs of "was i doing the right thing"

Not any more. After the way these people treat you i will screw them the way they have tried to screw me.

 

Good luck to all

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

I have at last got a reply from Snatch West.

 

They are very brief and all they have said is that they are standing by their letter to me dated 16th July (see post # 54 on this thread) and they will continue to pursue the debt.

 

Not sure where to go from here. I think the letter from Hallhasnofury (that she kindly gave me permission to adapt for my own use) to the OFT complaining about Nat West will be the way to go from here on.

 

What do other Caggers think??

 

maggiebroom

[Kaaron]

Hi Maggiebroom

 

Been enjoying your posts enormously - I love your sense of humour. I think you should go ahead with the letter from HHNFand see what happens. I believe these people are hoping that if they come up with enough gobbledegook we'll give up.

I'm trying to get a copy of my ca to HHNF on the PPI thread - any ideas?

was told to take a digital photo, download it then go to photobucket? Help!

Kaaron

[Maggiebroom]

Hi Maggiebroom

 

Been enjoying your posts enormously - I love your sense of humour. I think you should go ahead with the letter from HHNFand see what happens. I believe these people are hoping that if they come up with enough gobbledegook we'll give up.

I'm trying to get a copy of my ca to HHNF on the PPI thread - any ideas?

was told to take a digital photo, download it then go to photobucket? Help!

Kaaron

 

 

Hi Kaaron

THanks for your comments

Sometimes though the humour wears a bit thin. However I shall battle on. Lets face it if it wasn't for Churchill (who used to be my MP when I was a child) none of us would have the bulldog spirit.

 

As for photobucket. Scan your picture (if you have a scanner) into your PC and then go to photobucket and register and all the instructions are there. I got a bit confussed with it at first, but it works in the end. Failing all that IT bit ask her for her ordinary email address and if you can attach it for her. She is a great help to all of us so I am sure she will have a look for you.

 

Best of Luck. I am going out now but when I get back I will have a look at your thread.

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

PS Kaaron

 

That is Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

 

maggiebroom

[Maggiebroom]

My official complaint to the OFT with all correspondence went of yesterday so I will update when I get a reply.

 

maggiebroom

[conar686]

Not sure where to go from here. I think the letter from Hallhasnofury (that she kindly gave me permission to adapt for my own use) to the OFT complaining about Nat West will be the way to go from here on.

 

OFT complaints can be sent here

 

Consumer Direct

 

MB You should also place complaints with their local Trading standards for exceeding CCA time limits. You can find the nearest one to their head office by putting the post code in a search here

 

http://www.tradingstandards.gov. uk/

 

I'll email you a template if you want

 

I'd ask for a copy of their complaints procedure (your entitled to it) once they send it make sure they have followed their own process, if they haven't you can complain to the FOS

[hellhasnofury]

OFT complaints can be sent here

 

Consumer Direct

 

MB You should also place complaints with their local Trading standards for exceeding CCA time limits. You can find the nearest one to their head office by putting the post code in a search here

 

http://www.tradingstandards.gov. uk/

 

I'll email you a template if you want

 

I'd ask for a copy of their complaints procedure (your entitled to it) once they send it make sure they have followed their own process, if they haven't you can complain to the FOS

 

Hello Cougar

 

I would also be interested in the template letter can you post it on Maggies thread or pm me