Playstation 3 pre-order issue

[the_tzar]

Hi peeps,

 

So i pre-ordered a ps3 from Argos and paid in full, upfront. A couple of weeks ago, i decided to cancel my order and got a full refund. Now yesterday i couldn't believe it, when one arrived from Argos.

 

Everybody i've asked friend wise, says keep it, my dad says keep it, but my do gooder mother says return it. Someone on another forum mentioned in Scotland there is something called "law of mistake" (not to be confused with "mistake of law) and that means any goods that arrive at your house, that you didn't order or canceled your order are considered a gift and you can do with them as you please

 

Now my questions are, am i within my rights to keep this? What happens if 6 months down the line they realize "their mistake" and either ask for it back or the money for it? Can i keep it and if they ever got in contact with me, simply say tough !"£$

[patdavies]

It's not yours, you haven't paid for it and it has been delivered by mistake - this means that it still belongs to Argos.

 

If you simply keep it, this is theft.

 

All you have to do is write to Argos and inform them that they have made a mistake and please contact you to make the necessary arrangements to collect it. Note that you are not obliged to take it back to a store - it is their mistake and it is up to them to rectify it.

 

What your family/friends are thinking of is unsolicited goods, where you can keep them after a period of time. The PS/3 is not unsolicited - it has simply been delivered by mistake

[the_tzar]

Could you explain to me the difference between unsolicited goods and mistaken delivery please?

 

One of my friends had a problem recently that;s kind of related. He noticed something like 450 pound missing from his bank account, so he went into the bank to see what's what.

 

Now it turned out he's been paying somebodies water rates for a fair while. He asked the, so what happens now, surely i get my cash back? The bank says yes you will. Then my mate asked, how does the water firm go on, do they get their money back? He was told that the water firm can request the person who should have been paying for the money, but can't enforce it, since it's their mistake and they are libel

 

Doesn't this apply here?

[barracad]

Unsolicited goods would be, for example, a company you have never dealt with sends you a book which you haven't ordered and then sends you an invoice for it.

 

A mistake is like in your case where you have cancelled an order but for some reason the company have mistakenly delivered it. They are entitled to retrieve this item.

[the_tzar]

Ah ok thanks barracad .....

 

But since i didn't like pat's answer, I've just called the CAB, who gave me the number for consumer direct and here's what they say.

 

Apparently since it's their mistake, i'm under no legal obligation to notify them of it. If however, at some point down the line they realize their self and contact me, i am legally obliged to either arrange for them to collect or pay for it.

 

On that advice, i think i'm going to use it and if they ever come calling, i'll tell them it's ready and waiting for them to collect

[barracad]

On that advice, i think i'm going to use it and if they ever come calling, i'll tell them it's ready and waiting for them to collect

 

Go for it.

 

If you take it out of the box today and they call you on Monday, and you agree for them to collect it, you owe them the difference between a brand new PS3 and a second hand PS3.

[the_tzar]

That's no biggie and worth the risk I didn't cancel it because i couldn't afford it or anything, i just looked into prices around the world and thought we were getting ripped off Please before you say it, i know technically it's still a good deal, but i want a great deal

[barracad]

I imagine what is most likely to happen is that they will realise their mistake and simply take the money from your card if they have your details stored.

[the_tzar]

That wasn't one of the possibilities consumer direct offered and they're closed now until monday. I'll have to phone them Monday and see what they say about it. If they can do that, then it will be sent back and i'll import one

[buzby]

Argos are pretty slick, and whilst you think you've got a bargain, you may well find that the payment is already out of your account, as they do not ship until they have the funds. I think Consumer Direct are talking nonsense. IF Argos shipped this (after you canceled the order) you have a legal and moral duty to advise them and ask to arrange collection. However, since you've probably already paid for it, that won;t be an issue.

[the_tzar]

ok here's the full story and it kinda goes against Argos being slick. I ordered one over the website and decided to cancel, so i phoned them to cancel it. Instead of canceling it, they debited my card again and placed another order.

 

So i got them back on the phone and gave them what for. I kept checking my bank account online and withing 5 days i received both payments back in full. Then to my surprise, i got a knock at the door and a guy was there with a ps3 from Argos for me :o Does this sound like a slick company to you? It doesn't to me.

 

I've had the moral bashing off my mother, but i like to think of myself as a modern day Robbin Hood And as consumer direct says, i have no legal obligation to notify them. Since when is it a crime to not notify people of their mistakes? If you have any links to any legal documentation saying otherwise, please show it me and i'll act accordingly

 

I've just checked my online statement and nothing has been paid to Argos in the last week and i've received a ps3

 

They didn't notify the mistake in charging me twice did they?

[barracad]

I think if you believe you are in any way a modern day Robin Hood for keeping property which does not belong to you then you are deluded.

 

As for Consumer Direct, I agree with Buzby - either they misunderstood the question, or they were not aware of the full facts. It sounds to me like they believed you had received unsolicited goods which is clearly not the case.

 

If you have any links to any legal documentation saying otherwise, please show it me and i'll act accordingly

 

As requested:

 

http://www.lawteacher.net/Criminal/Property%20Offences/TA%201968.pdf

[the_tzar]

I think if you believe you are in any way a modern day Robin Hood for keeping property which does not belong to you then you are deluded.

 

As for Consumer Direct, I agree with Buzby - either they misunderstood the question, or they were not aware of the full facts. It sounds to me like they believed you had received unsolicited goods which is clearly not the case.

 

 

 

As requested:

 

http://www.lawteacher.net/Criminal/Property%20Offences/TA%201968.pdf

 

Heh i'd call you deluded for possibly not realizing the robn hood thing was joke, but i'm not that petty

 

As for the consumer direct, i told them i had oringonaly ordered it, but canceled and got a refund, so they were aware of the full facts

 

And thanks i'll look into that link now

[the_tzar]

1. Basic definition of theft

(1) A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to

another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and ‘theft’ and ‘steal’

shall be construed accordingly.

(2) It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain, or is made

for the thief’s own benefit.

(3) The five following sections of this Act shall have effect as regards the

interpretation and operation of this section (and, except as otherwise provided by this Act,

shall apply only for purposes of this section).

 

 

Umm so according to that, as long as i have no intention of permanently depriving them of it, then i'm not stealing. So if they realize their mistake and ask for it back, they can have it. Does that mean i have no intention of permanently depriving them of it?

 

Or am i missing something?

[the_tzar]

Oh and i've looked into unsolicited goods and if you receive those, you are within your right to keep them, without ever paying, even if they ask. Going by that alone, it's impossible consumer direct thought i'd received unsolicited goods, because they told me if they got back to me, i why would to settle up or send it back

 

Or am i missing something again?

[barracad]

Umm so according to that, as long as i have no intention of permanently depriving them of it, then i'm not stealing. So if they realize their mistake and ask for it back, they can have it. Does that mean i have no intention of permanently depriving them of it?

 

 

If you are going to break the seal and use the item for an indefinite period of time then it could be argued that you are intending on permanently depriving them of the item, and that is certainly how your first post reads.

 

You don't appear to understand the legalities, but I hope you can appreciate the morality and, I have to say, this goes against everything which this site stands for.

[the_tzar]

There is no seal on it :o It's only sealed by regular tape. Now i dunno how it's sealed inside, but i could find out

 

As for morals, that's horses for courses and the reason why we need laws. See if i had a two year old kid that got murdered, i'd personally find it morally acceptable to get a gun, track the killer down and put a bullet or 7 in their head. My guess is a lot of people wouldn't though and again why we need laws. I also think it's morally acceptable, for people to pay for their mistakes. God i've made many and paid for them all .... Maybe im just a right wing monster /shrug

 

I haven't obtained anything dishonestly and i'm prepared to give it back, if they ask. Plus nothing anyone on here or from consumer direct has said or wrote has suggested to me i'm legally wrong.

 

I visit another site a lot and on there, there was recently a legal discussion. The guy that offer an answer, while he wasn't fully qualified, he'd been studying law for two years. According to him laws are followed literally and word for word. Now if that's the case, that link you posted and what consumer direct told me, only lends weight to my case.

 

Now you are right, i'm not versed on legalities and that's why i'm here partaking in this discussion to try to figure out where i stand, before i make my ultimate decision. So please, if you or anyone else has anything more to offer, that legally states that i'm literally in the wrong, please share it, i beg you. I don't want to pay for another mistake, but i'd not want to pay for your mistake even more so

[rosiecotton]

I don't think this can be classed as theft since Argos were the ones that sent it. It's not like he ordered it under false details or took it from them through underhand means.

 

However of course if Argos become aware of this they will indeed expect payment in full. I doubt they will accept the product back. By using it, you are legally accepting the goods as yours and therefore they will expect payment. I believe that this is ultimately what a court would say.

 

Morally I disagree too but legally I believe the above to be correct.

[livelylad]

I have something to offer.

 

Why dont you just phone them tell them they have made a mistake.

 

That way there are no repercussions of any sort. How would you feel if a similar situation had happened to you? Also what you are intending to do goes against the fundemental principles of this site.

Its reclaim the right not deprive the right.

[Advoc8]

I'd agree with Livelylad. Assuming that the order for the PS3 was cancelled it belongs to Argos and will do so unless you either pay them for it or they decide it's a gift. I'd certainly not open the box unless you're certain you want to keep it and are prepared to pay for it.

 

The theft situation is a little more complicated and there are good arguments for and against an accusation against you, but I doubt it would go that far unless you are asked to return it and then refuse.

[the_tzar]

I don't think this can be classed as theft since Argos were the ones that sent it. It's not like he ordered it under false details or took it from them through underhand means.

 

However of course if Argos become aware of this they will indeed expect payment in full. I doubt they will accept the product back. By using it, you are legally accepting the goods as yours and therefore they will expect payment. I believe that this is ultimately what a court would say.

 

Morally I disagree too but legally I believe the above to be correct.

 

Me personally, if it wasn't for consumer direct telling me they are legally allowed to claim full payment if i don't send it back, i'd even question that right. I mean if someone comes up to you in the street and gives you, of their own free will £50, do they have the right to come back a day later and say, "sorry i made a mistake, i'd like it back"?

 

EDIT Yes i know they have the right to say it, but would they have the right to it back? At the end of the day, i had entered no contractual agreement with Argos

[the_tzar]

I have something to offer.

 

Why dont you just phone them tell them they have made a mistake.

 

That way there are no repercussions of any sort. How would you feel if a similar situation had happened to you? Also what you are intending to do goes against the fundemental principles of this site.

Its reclaim the right not deprive the right.

 

Because their mistake benefits me It's the second mistake they've made during this process and they weren't quick to jump to point out a mistake that left me over my overdraft and out of pocket to the tune of £450 were they?

[the_tzar]

I'd agree with Livelylad. Assuming that the order for the PS3 was cancelled it belongs to Argos and will do so unless you either pay them for it or they decide it's a gift. I'd certainly not open the box unless you're certain you want to keep it and are prepared to pay for it.

 

The theft situation is a little more complicated and there are good arguments for and against an accusation against you, but I doubt it would go that far unless you are asked to return it and then refuse.

 

That's exactly what i intend to do, currently the box is sat on my bedroom floor, UNOPENED and it's won't be opened until i weigh up the risk versus reward and the possible consequences

[Advoc8]

I mean if someone comes up to you in the street and gives you, of their own free will £50, do they have the right to come back a day later and say, "sorry i made a mistake, i'd like it back"?

 

It all depends on the context - sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes you keeping it would be theft.

 

Likewise if Argos had stuck a sticker on the box saying 'have a free PS3' the position would be a whole lot clearer.

[rosiecotton]

Re. the £50, it's not the same thing at all, you originally placed the order which led to their mistake, and therefore it's not like they've just sent it out to you randomly (which would be unsolicited and a different kettle of fish). There was a legal relationship there at one point.

 

I would be very careful in believing what Consumer Direct have said there; normally they are very good as I work closely with one of the regional services in my job, but they're not infallible. And I would say that in this case, if you just kept it boxed up and ready to return you would be within your rights to return it on request. But by using it, you are effectively legally accepting the goods as yours and they would be within their rights to ask for the payment in full.

 

I would be 99% sure that if it went to court, this is what the judge would order. Obviously I am not a judge, but I see consumer civil cases every single day so I am speaking from an experienced viewpoint.

 

I also agree with the others, that I cannot possibly encourage you to try it on, since it would be against the ethos of this site and not morally correct. I know you are looking for the legal position (which I have explained as best I can anyway) and not a moral stance, but my personal advice would be to let them know what has happened. If you do choose not to do this, be prepared to be liable for the full cost if the error is discovered (and it probably will be - I have a friend who ordered a desk from Argos and later cancelled it yet they still delivered, two weeks later they called her at work and informed her they would debit her card).