Solicitors Letter Received

[gizmo111]

Nanna, lets assume you don't make this months payment, and there is a ccj

on the account. Big deal, what are they going to do? They can't apply another ccj, nor a default. And as they are now in default, they cannot

pursue you till the default is removed.

 

They can't apply a CCJ as there is already one - what they can do is enforce the CCJ. There is no default on their part if there is a CCJ the CCJ in itself is proof of the debt, and they do not need to produce agreements to prove this.

 

The situation is the same if they haven't applied a ccj. Until they furnish you

with the required documents, there is nothing they can do

 

Not the same at all - if there is a CCJ this is enforceable in its own right. Without a CCJ then there is nothing they can do.

[lookinforinfo]

Gizmo, in both section 77 and 78 of the CCA, it states that should an

executed copy of the agreement not be produced within twelve working days

[plus two more days] the creditor is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement. There does not appear to be a rider that carries

on to state that the Act does not apply to an account carrying a ccj.

[gizmo111]

Gizmo, in both section 77 and 78 of the CCA, it states that should an

executed copy of the agreement not be produced within twelve working days

[plus two more days] the creditor is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement. There does not appear to be a rider that carries

on to state that the Act does not apply to an account carrying a ccj.

 

The CCA doesn't apply if the debt is being collected under a CCJ. The CCJ is proof that a debt exists and the CCj can b enforced.

The enforcement action mentioned in the act has already been taken.

It is absolutely pointless asking for any docs once a CCJ has been issued.

[nannamoon1]

Gizmo,

 

We are not 100% sure that this debt ever went to court, I myself have no paper work, as this debt is 14 years old, IMHO I cannot remember if there ever was a CCJ or not. I did wade through some old papers in the loft and found something that was hand written in a notebook (by myself) that may suggest that there was a CCJ, but apart from that I have a payment book from GPB which I have for the 14 years.

 

I did ring the County Court when I received GPB response to the CCA request. I was told that there would be no paper work as when they went computerized, everything was destroyed, I was also told they would not keep anything over 6 years old. So no evidence of a CCJ.

 

GPB have to date not produced any documents to show that the debt was a CCJ.

 

How can GPB enforce the debt (CCJ) if there is no documents to prove the debt ever went to court, and the court do not have any documents either.

[gizmo111]

How can GPB enforce the debt (CCJ) if there is no documents to prove the debt ever went to court, and the court do not have any documents either.

 

Simply they can't.

But the point I was making above is that in general the CCA default doesn't apply if a CCJ has already been issued on a debtor, yours is slightly different i nthat it is so old.

[lookinforinfo]

The CCA doesn't apply if the debt is being collected under a CCJ. The CCJ is proof that a debt exists and the CCj can b enforced. [/Quote]

I am obliged to You Gizmo for the explanation. However it is my understanding

that a Court would not necessarily require sight of the original agreement [or

a copy], when a CCJ was being requested -a deed of assignment would suffice, would it not?

I appreciate that owing to the length of time passed since this CCJ may have

been applied, that it may be impossible to establish what was produced as

proof there was a debt in this case. But as a general rule, could the

imposition of a CCJ on the strength of a Deed of Assignment, be challenged

if the original agreement could not subsequently be produced?

[PriorityOne]

I am obliged to You Gizmo for the explanation. However it is my understanding

that a Court would not necessarily require sight of the original agreement [or

a copy], when a CCJ was being requested -a deed of assignment would suffice, would it not?

I appreciate that owing to the length of time passed since this CCJ may have

been applied, that it may be impossible to establish what was produced as

proof there was a debt in this case. But as a general rule, could the

imposition of a CCJ on the strength of a Deed of Assignment, be challenged

if the original agreement could not subsequently be produced?

 

Hi Lookin,

 

I believe that's how CCJs get applied to catalogue debts.... A CCA is not usually sined in relation to catalogue accounts (unless it is for larger one-off items)... so CCJs must be issued on the strength of something else. If so, could these be challenged because there is no CCA ?

[nannamoon1]

Nanna, I suggest you send this one in view of th fact that there was a ccj

applied.

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Re your claim xxxxx

Thankyou for your letter dated 14th February.

 

I have asked you to comply with my CCA request. The Act does allow you

not to produce the documents if the debt has been satisfied s77[3]. No such

allowance is noted in the case of a ccj that was applied over six years ago.

According to the Data Protection Act 1998, Principle 6 states that data

should be kept no longer than is necessary. I would ask that you provide proof of any ccj applied to my account, and if it was applied longer than six

years ago, on what grounds you are retaining this data.

 

In any event, it has just come to my attention that I am able to challenge

the contract whether a ccj exists or not, and for that reason I do require

sight of the document.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

PS In answer to your question after ringing the Court, while they cannot

take you back and apply another ccj, they can take you back to apply

a charge on your house for instance.

 

Hi Lookingforinfo & Gizmo

 

After returning from holiday I have a letter from GPB replying to my letter above, this is what they replied:

 

Dear XXXX

 

Re: Next Retail Limited -v-Yourself

Claim Number XXXXXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated 21st February 2007.

 

We are still waiting to hear from our Clients as to whether or not they have any documentation.

 

Whilst noting your comments, we confirm that Judgment was entered on your own admission on 16th November 1993. Further, we would remind you that you made application to set aside that judgment, which was heard on the 5th July 1994 at Horsham County Court and your application was dismissed.

 

You have thereafter made payments on a regular basis, the last being received by us on the 7th February 2007. In our view the details in relation to the Judgment are still relevant and necessary to be retained. You will appreciate that in the event of default, we are entitled to make application to the Court to enforce the Judgment.

 

Immediately we hear from our Clients we will write to you again.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

Geoffrey Parker Bourne

 

 

 

Obviously I have not made a payment since Feb, just a little concerned that they may make an application to the court to enforce the Judgment (although I am still not sure if this debt was a CCJ), also GPB have not answered the question regarding retaining my data.

 

 

 

 

Any advice or help where to go from here please

[Darren]

Hi Lookingforinfo & Gizmo

 

Whilst noting your comments, we confirm that Judgment was entered on your own admission on 16th November 1993. Further, we would remind you that you made application to set aside that judgment, which was heard on the 5th July 1994 at Horsham County Court and your application was dismissed.

 

 

How can they have these details but no court paperwork. Whats to say they are not just plucking dates and times out of thin air. Have they told you how much the judgement was. If noone has a record of this you could be payimg forever.

 

I hope this gets sorted soon - Good luck

[lookinforinfo]

Priority One, GPB seems to think that there was one but doubts that it

would still exist. As the debt is still outstanding, it should not have been

destroyed.

 

Nanna, I can understand that after this length of time you would have

forgotten if a CCJ had been applied, but equally, if you had asked for it to be

set aside and have your request dismissed, would have been something more

likely to be have been remembered by you?

I notice that they never say County Court Judgement, could they have

perhaps put a charging order on your house instead since that could be

described as a Judgement too, could it niot? If so, charging orders only lsat ten years.

I'd write back and say you have no recollection of this "Judgement" and your

appeal, and would ask them to furnish some sort of proof since the Court is

denying any knowledge of it. And ask them if they haven't proof, what form

did the judgement take-a CCJ or a charging order etc. and what the terms were.

[nannamoon1]

Priority One, GPB seems to think that there was one but doubts that it

would still exist. As the debt is still outstanding, it should not have been

destroyed.

 

Nanna, I can understand that after this length of time you would have

forgotten if a CCJ had been applied, but equally, if you had asked for it to be

set aside and have your request dismissed, would have been something more

likely to be have been remembered by you?

I notice that they never say County Court Judgement, could they have

perhaps put a charging order on your house instead since that could be

described as a Judgement too, could it niot? If so, charging orders only lsat ten years.

I'd write back and say you have no recollection of this "Judgement" and your

appeal, and would ask them to furnish some sort of proof since the Court is

denying any knowledge of it. And ask them if they haven't proof, what form

did the judgement take-a CCJ or a charging order etc. and what the terms were.

 

Hi lfi,

 

As previously said, this debt was a result of a divorce 14 years ago and my ex hubby dealt with all this, I have spoken to him (thankfully we are on speaking terms lol) and although he cannot be 100% sure he thinks that this debt did not go to court.

 

As for a charging order on the house, at the time (14 years ago) I did not own my own house, (local council) so there is not a charging order, I would not have a clue about the said CCJ being set aside, I wish I knew, this is so frustrating.

 

LFI what I cannot understand is GPB come up with these dates,(date CCJ was started, Judgment set aside date) but I have asked them in previous letters to provide me with documentary evidence which they just keep coming back with "we have written to Next Retail & when we get a reply we will be in touch) but if there was/is a CCJ they must have paperwork as the CCJ is still active as to say, so why are they not producing the evidence? Also if they have no paperwork etc. then where are they getting these dates from, surely if they are collecting my payment they have a legal right to maintain the evidence, they have not answered the question about retaining my data either.

 

Also, do I keep maintaining the payments, I have not paid March's. HELP this is driving me mad:-x a challenge for you LFI or anyone

[lookinforinfo]

Well by not paying them, it may provoke them into producing the details.

And while they could threaten further legal action, you could counter that by

claiming the account is in dispute.

 

You could try and contact Experian, if they are the company where the debt

shows on your credit file. Ask them if they have archives where such things

as old records and CCJs are held. It would seem strange that a Judgement

that covers the lifetime of the debt is not retained by either the Court or

the CRAs while that debt is still live, leaving the field wide open for an unscrupulous company to make

all sorts of allegations. [i am not saying that GPB is unscrupulous as I know

very little of them BTW].

[nannamoon1]

OK LFI,

 

Just rang Equifax, as I am a gold member, and they would not have any details of this CCJ as they would have deleted the data after 6 years, now they claim that GPB would not be able to take me back to court as the CCJ is over 6 years, but according to GPB they will make an application to the court to enforce the CCJ should I default by not keeping up regular payments.

 

where do I go from here??? LOL

[nannamoon1]

LFI,

 

I have news at last, I have rang Next Retail and have been told that the debt went to Intrum Justitia in 1993 and Next retail do and id not take me to court, however when questioned about the debt in great detail, as to whether the debt was sold at the time or are GPB whom are in house Solicitors for Intum Justitia, Next in form me that they receive NONE of the money that I pay, so I asked who does the money I pay go to then,I was told GPB/Intrum Justita, I then asked well if the debt is owed by yourselves then why are you not receiving my payments, she said that all they would get is when the debt has been settled in full Intrum Justittia/GPB would just write to Next to inform them that the debt has be settled.

 

Next would not answer my question as to whether they had sold the debt to GPB/IJ, also Next did say that GPB did write to them in February asking for statements of the account (this must of been when I requested the CCA) and they sent the statements back to GPB on February 16th, yet in the latest letter from GPB they claim that they are still waiting to hear from Next.

 

Next have also told me that when the debt was passed over in July 1993 the balance was £1,608.20 now I have been paying £7 per month for the last 14 years so that adds up to approx £1,120 yet the figure I have in my GPB payment book on February 3rd 2005 is £1090.70.

 

So where do I go from here, Next claim that they NEVER took me to court and they do not take Customers to court, could it possible be that IJ/GPB took me to court for the debt then? whats going on? HELP HELP

[nannamoon1]

forgot to mention that I did ask Next if I was not to pay anymore, what would happen, they told me that possibly GPB/IJ would pass the debt back to them.

[PriorityOne]

Nanna... this definately reads as if the account has been sold. NEXT have said that they do not receive any of the payments. They are just avoiding having to confirm the sale over the 'phone to you.

 

If they have not taken you to court, then there will be no CCJ from them... which only leave GPB on behalf of IJ.

 

It also sounds as if IJ have slapped a load of charges onto the account.... so one option would be to send a SAR to Intrum Justitia to find out about these, reduce the amount owing and pay the balance (if there is a CCJ). If there is a CCJ, then the SAR should also provide details of this.... while keeping the account in dispute for 40 days.

 

If the SAR comes back with no details of any CCJ from IJ as well, then surely GPB would have to explain why IJ did not provide details of it as part of your request, should it go to court.

 

I have to pop out now... but will be back on later.

[nannamoon1]

Priority,

 

Do I send the SAR to IJ as I have always dealt with GPB (although I knew only from reading a thread on here that GPB were in house solicitors for IJ) I have never had any correspondence from IJ regarding this debt only ever had correspondence from GPB.

 

Just a thought, as said Next have never taken me to court, so could that mean (as you mention) that GPB/IJ originally bought the debt and GPB/IJ took me to court hence the reason GPB keep stating that the debt is a CCJ, but saying that Next did confirm that GPB requested statement from Next in February and Next Sent the statements to GPB on Feb 13th yet GPB have not released or even confirmed that they have these, but I now know they have them.

 

Also if say as we think the debt was sold to GPB why would GPB write to Next and ask for the statements if they own the debt themselves.

 

 

Would it be advisable to perhaps write back to GPB and confront them with the fact Next have never taken me to court, the court do not hold any records of the CCJ, equifax have no records, and inform them that Next receive none of the payments I make, also mention that Next sent GPB the statements on Feb 13th, yet you state in your letter to me that you are still waiting to hear from their clients (Next)

 

It does make me laugh that when GPB write to me tat the top they put Yourself V Next, but next never took me to court so why the title?

 

So we have it confirmed that Next did not take me to court, but what I need to now I suppose did Next sell the debt and then did IJ/GPB take me to court, if that is the case where would I stand on that basis, as sending an SAR would be of no use surely.

[PriorityOne]

Hi Nanna,

 

Even though GPB have been writing to you, it is IJ who they are acting for.... therefore the SAR should go to IJ. At the same time, you should write to GPB to inform them that the account is in dispute. IF there is a CCJ, then it will not make a difference if the account is in dispute or not because the CCJ will override this. However, if they are trying to mislead you and there is no CCJ... or no details to back up their claim that there is a CCJ, then they should back off.

 

I have no idea why they would be requesting statements from NEXT, unless they were hoping to gain additional information about the account from them. You could, as you mention, write back to GPB and outline the fact that you were never taken to court by NEXT and that your credit files are clear.... therefore, you are still waiting for proof that a CCJ exists, but if you could get this info. in writing from NEXT, it would be better. You could then copy it to GPB.

 

The only reason I suggest a SAR is because I found out that one of my accounts had been sold through a SAR to my original creditor. Although you could send a SAR to NEXT, it seems pointless because of the length of time you have been paying IJ.... so from my viewpoint, it would be more sensible to SAR IJ and see what they can deliver.

 

Does anyone have any other thoughts on this ?

[nannamoon1]

PO,

 

I could SAR IJ, just a thought though, if there is a CCJ only IJ could have taken me to court as already said Next have said they have no CCJ on the debt.

 

Sending a SAR with a CCJ on the account would not help in this situation would it? I am currently not paying, I thought that if a CCJ was issued then the account could not go into dispute and should you fail to pay then you would obviously be in default.

 

GPB do have the statements from next so why are they not sending those to me in any case, should I send a SAR and then a separate letter claiming all the points I mentioned above.

 

Next say no CCJ

Next say they do not receive any payments that I have made/make

Next say debt was passed over in July 1993 and balance then was £1,608 (just a thought I was of the opinion that if a CCJ was issued then all Interest and charges cease, if that is the case then why does it seem that there are charges and Interest.

Next say they have sent GPB the statements

GPB say they are still awaiting correspondence - but Next have corresponded on Feb 13th

County Court have no details or evidence of CCJ

 

Should I call GPB bluff with all of these points in a separate letter?

[lookinforinfo]

GPB have been less than honest with you. Their letter to you implied that it

was Next that had applied the CCJ We will ask our clients if they still hold a copy of the Agreement you refer to but must point out that your contractual liability has been embodied in a judgment since 16th November 1993 and it is unlikely that our Clients will hold any documentation after this length of time.

They could argue that the client they referred to was IJ rather than Next but

if so, it is very misleading.

I would write to GPB stating that you have contacted Experian and they have no details of a CCJ being applied to your account. Then ask them to confirm

their statement that a CCJ has been applied and who applied it. Also you

want GPB's proof [ie their correspondence ]of the dates that they mentioned

in a previous letter of the CCJ and the set aside, and its refusal. [Do not

mention Next]. Ask GPB what rate of interest is being charged to the account.

Also advise them that the account is in dispute and will remain so until both

the ccj is proved, and the CCA request is complied with. And as such you

are withholding payment until the two matters are resolved.

 

Yes, send IJ the sar not GPB as they will fall back on client/solicitor

confidentiality. You might then get the statements that were sent from Next,

as that is not what you should get under a CCA. Also if it was IJ who applied

the CCJ, the Court charges should be shown, and they should have been kept as the debt is still live. If they can't produce the court costs, they cannot

charge for them now. And that is the advantage of the sar, you find out how

much the charges have been that IJ have levied. You should get some

indication too whether they own the debt. It also might worry GPB.

[nannamoon1]

LFI & PO

 

I have a copy of a SAR that I sent to my Bank relating to Account Fraud, (another story court case for breach of DPA)

 

Can you run over it and see if it will be suitable to send IJ, if so I will send it today Recorded Delivery or will Special Delivery be better.

It will be laid out properly, just has not copied & pasted properly LOL

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXX

 

1) Under the Data Protection Act 1989 Subject Access Request, we require you to provide the full data held.

 

2) For your convenience I have outlined below a summary of the information that I require.

3) All computer screen notes relating to the account

4) All computer screen notes relating to transactions that have gone through the account

5) All computer screen notes relating to transactions that have been refused or dishonoured

6) All Internal messages or notes relating to the account

7) All Internal messages or notes relating to transactions that have gone through the account

8) All Internal messages or notes relating to transactions that have been refused or dishonoured

9) Full details of managerial decisions whether to pay an item or not, who took the decision and why all recordings of any telephone conversations, whether internal or external, relating to the account

10) Copies of any e-mail's, or other electronic communication's, whether internal or external, relating the account

11) Copies of all letters relating to the account

12) All information relating to litigation that has taken place on the account

13) All statements relating to the account

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you.

This is not an exhaustive list by any means it is just an example of some of the information that is required.

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to our identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully

Nannamoon LOL

 

As for the other letter to GPB, LFI any ideas how to word it as I do not want to say the wrong thing, giving any details away that I have spoken to Next etc. then I can get both off today.

 

Thanks a million, I really do not know what I would do without this site.

[PriorityOne]

Hi Nanna,

 

Sorry for not replying sooner... have just got in from work. I have made a few changes to your letter. Have a read and see what you and Lookinforinfo think.... You need to get this one right, so send it off tomorrow morning instead of rushing it out this evening. They won't get it before Monday anyway....

 

I have tried not to repeat myself in the letter... but there also needs to be no room for doubt as to what you are after from them.

 

 

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXX

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my entire history with your organisation, including a complete set of statements detailing all payments received.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my entire account history that has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or by any other person outside of your organisation, I require full disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention. I also require full disclosure in relation to the outcome of any manual intervention and/or any legal proceedings that may have occurred during this time.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention and/or legal proceedings, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

Notwithstanding the above, I also require you to supply the following information :

• All computer screen notes relating to the account
  
• All internal messages or notes relating to the account
  
• Full transcripts of all telephone recordings made or received by your organisation.
  
• All information relating to litigation that has taken place on the account
  
• All statements relating to the account

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, then please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Nannamoon

[lookinforinfo]

Dear GPB,

I am in receipt of your letter of the [xxxx].

I am sorry to trouble you again, but I cannot recall that my debt ever went to Court at all. And you have been good enough to supply me with several dates

regarding this matter in order to further jog my memory-to no avail I am afraid. As there appears a very real possibility that Next have not retained

details of the judgement because of the time span, I woiuld be grateful therefore if you be kind enough to furnish me with the correspondence held by yourself that would satisfy my curiosity in this regard.

 

At the moment as you know, I am awaiting a response to my Consumer Credit Act request and I regard my account as being in dispute until I receive the

necessary documents. And as such, I am withholding further payments until the paperwork is supplied. In the meantime I would appreciate confirmation from

you that as the acount is in dispute, that no interest charges are being levied

at the moment.

Being unfamiliar with County Court Judgements, perhaps you could advise me,

when you send me the relevant letters [between you and Next?] where I

stand with regards to the disputed account, as I will still not have received

the original agreement etc, but will have your confirmation that a Judgement

is in place.

 

Yours ............

[nannamoon1]

LFI,

 

You are absolutely superb, with he way you word letters, I had drafted a letter, but yours is a much calmer approach, LOL, I will send the SAR to IJ and the letter to GPB first thing tomorrow Special Delivery.

 

We will await their reply.

 

PO thanks for tweaking my SAR I will send that tomorrow as well Special Delivery.

 

Once again thanks

[nannamoon1]

Just had a reply from GPB to my letter of 26th March,

 

They have not answered one of the questions.....

 

Any ideas on the next course of action....

 

here is their reply....

 

Dear Madam,

 

Re: Next Retail Limited v yourself

Claim Number: XXXX

 

Thank you for your letter of 26th March 2007.

 

As explained in our letter of 15th March 2007, Judgment was entered on your own admission. We will write further in the near future.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Geoffrey Parker Bourne