what do you do if paypal....

[itsamomentintime]

...reverse a transaction?

 

for instance, lets say you sell an ipod on ebay for £150. you recieve the money to your paypal account and send the item with special delivery.

 

then paypal removes the £150 because the buyer used a stolen credit card.

 

you are then £150 out of pocket, and minus the ipod.

 

whats more, if you have already transferred the money into your bank account, paypal will still reverse the transaction, leaving your paypal account in the red, which eventually they will pass onto a DCA.

 

surely the problem is the fact that paypal allow people to use stolen credit cards to pay for stuff - where are the security checks?

 

advice please.

[buzby]

It's their ball - unfortunately. It is also a worryingf scenario for sellers, many of whom have stopped taking Paypal for this very reason. Buyers invariably receive the best protection, but Paypal needs to do more to ensure that the CC numbers provided are not found to be subsequently 'stolen', and there are further checks they could employ to ensure there can be no reversal due to fraud.

[itsamomentintime]

just invented this game

 

go to eBay UK - The UK's Online Marketplace

 

and see how long it takes you to find a phone number for them

 

maybe i was missing something but i gave up in the end

[barracad]

You can call them on the following number in the UK: 0700 500 3229 (which spells 0700 500 EBAY on your phone keypad). If you're calling from outside the UK, use +44 700 500 3229. The lines are open between 09:00 and 18:00 (GMT / BST) Monday to Friday and outside these times an answerphone facility is available.

 

 

The number is defined as charge code pn4 by BT, so your call will cost you 26 pence per minute (including VAT) if you are calling from a BT landline. Other service providers and calls from mobiles / abroad may be charged differently. You will just have to decide if the benefit of talking directly to a real live person in eBay customer services justifies the expense.

 

 

As a second best alternative you may use "Live Help", which is a chat window system that connects you with eBay customer services. You can currently only access this from ebay.com - look for the "Live Help" link below the main search box. This will open a chat dialogue box which will normally enable you to be "speaking" with an eBay team member in around 10 seconds.

[itsamomentintime]

did you play the game?

[barracad]

Did I win?

[itsamomentintime]

no thats not the number

[itsamomentintime]

Paypal have passed an alleged debt owed by me to NCO, who keep calling and harrassing me. The debt is for a reversal that Paypal did for an item that I sold on ebay, leaving my Paypal account in a minus balance.

 

As you know, Paypal perform reversals with no questions asked, even if the buyer recieves the goods in perfect working order, leaving the seller without the item and without any funds.

 

So as far as I am concerned, there is no debt owed. The goods arrived safely, but Paypal refunded the seller.

 

What can I do? Do I send a CCA to NCO? Is this relevant?

[The Phantom]

I think when you sign up with paypal you have to agree to their terms and conditions regarding the service they provide, and I think you agree that in disputes you will abide by paypal's decision in the relevant matter

If they go with the buyer then you will have to accept their decision even if you think it is wrong. That is what their argument would be in a dispute and they will provide the relevant agreement

I don't think there has been a legal challenge in the UK as yet with regards to paypal's procedures as of course in commercial / trade law what they are doing is wrong. If the buyer of goods does not request transport insurance any risks associated with the transport are buyer's risks (damage / loss etc) as it would be assumed the buyer has got his own insurance. If the buyer pays the shipper to insure the goods then it is a different matter. The same should really apply to any paypal transaction. If the buyer did not request / pay for insurance (i.e. recorded or registered service) then he should have no come back on the seller if the goods are not received or received damaged, but paypal does not do things that way. The seller is in any case responsible. So unless their general terms and conditions are challeneged in a court I think their terms of use is what you have to abide by. Unfortunately that means you are always responsible for goods paid for through paypal.

So in future it may be best not to accept paypal for any online transactions or only quote postage costs that include recorded delivery if you sell on ebay

[itsamomentintime]

so i have to pay NCO, meaning I am out of pocket AND minus the goods that i posted to the buyer?

[tbern123]

I'll be honest, I use paypal but I have never bothered to read the terms and conditions. However, following the stories on BBC1's Watchdog I feel Nicole99 is right. Until someone challenges their policy in court they will not change.

 

You could put a case together and try your luck at the small claims court against Paypal... The threat of legal action and bad publicity, may make them back down...

[The Phantom]

That is the agreement you entered into with paypal when you signed up with them.

When you are asked to click the accept button you accept their tragic and unfair business practices but that is what they will refer to

When sending goods paid for through paypal you must in case of a dispute be able to provide proof of receipt that paypal can check online. That is nowadays OK for shipping within the UK if you use recorded delivery but for any international transaction there is no such thing unless you use a courier like UPS , DHL or TNT or something. Somehting to keep in mind when accepting payment through paypal. There are many ebay users who are in the same situantion like you (I am also one of paypal's victims....). Sellers pay alll their fees and shoulder all the risk, but unless their general terms are challenged there is probably not a lot one can do as we all accepted their terms of use

[itsamomentintime]

well i use nochex now - thanks for all the advice, paypal are so poor

[The Phantom]

If you offer NOCHEX on ebay you must be careful, NOCHEX is no longer allowed there

They have branded it an unsafe payment method (like Western Union or cash payment through the post) as payments cannot be reversed like with paypal

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that paypal is an ebay company and NOCHEX could be competition to paypal....hint hint

So you shouldn't display the NOCHEX logo in your listings and don't advertise it too much, maybe just mention it very small in the text and hope buyers don't know it is not allowed.

[itsamomentintime]

don't advertise it too much, maybe just mention it very small in the text and hope buyers don't know it is not allowed.

 

reading you loud and clear

[jaxads]

I too have today been left a calling card from NCO. Didn't have a clue what it was about, until I telephoned them. It refers to a credit card reversal on paypal, going back to summer last year. I thought at the time it was so unfair, so just left the balance as being -£97!! So now this NCO say that they're going to call to collect the amount owed, which will increase to about £250. I told them to stop right there, to not come to my address if it would incur further charges as I simply wouldn't pay them!! I said I would seek further clarification and advice and then get back to them, by the end of the month. They have put a date on the computer for 31 Jan and say they'll take further action if I don't pay by then. I'm already in dispute with paypal (my husband's account) where we're out of pocket to the tune of £370 -- I paid for two items (one at £420 and one at £450) together - each item covered in value up to £500 as shown on the ebay listing. However, because I paid as one transaction, I only got back £500 and not the full £870 - so as far as paypal are concerned, no matter what I do, I end up being the one losing out. I will never use them again!!!! Looks like as a accepted the terms and conditions that I'll have to cough up to NCO, but I'll make them wait until payday!!!!

[The Phantom]

Paypal is very crafty. I think unless their terms and conditions are challenged in a court in the UK it will be difficult to get around the fact that we agreed to these terms when we signed up with paypal.

But when thinking about it, one agrees to the bank charges when opening an account with a bank as it is within their terms and conditions, but they all quickly pay out when taken to court about it.

This is due to the fact that a few clever brains found the relevant laws these charges may be in breach of.

If someone finds laws that paypal's terms are in breach of, there may be the same possibility to get them on that (just as banks are getting caught out now)

But that won't be an easy task I would have thought

[Jase1982]

I had exactly the same trouble with Paypal. To such extent that I wrote to the Paypal office in Ireland. They replied about 2 weeks later with a 5 page essay detailing their terms and conditions. They also included a copy of the banking code, which I thought was quite good of them!

 

NCO are a bunch of cowboys. If you leave it and ignore them they'll go away as they have no powers to enforce anything specific. The card is just to get you to pay up by harrassing you.

 

I had the same and I told them I wouldn't pay. In the end they gave up and I assume they referred my case back to Paypal. It would then be up to them whether they take it further, which I don't believe they would.

[bidstermeister]

It is up to the seller to ensure that the item is received by the buyer - It is their responsibility until it is signed-for (you did use a trackable, signed-for service, as per the T+C's?). I do not agree that if a buyer doesn't opt for "insurance" then it's their fault.

 

My view is that if a seller offers a postal service without the right insurance (ie: first class for a costly item), I'd ask that it be send Special Delivery and I'd pay the difference. It's down to the seller to ensure that their within the rules of PayPal if they accept it as a payment method. That includes sending stuff via a trackable method.

 

It's also a 2-sided coin:

 

1. PayPal are rubbish because they refunded a buyer who brought about a fraudelant claim.

 

2. PayPal are rubbish because they didn't refund me when a seller did a runner.

 

PS: I hate PayPal, they've done me over - But I now know some of the pitfalls, and won't be using them again.

[The Phantom]

I do not agree that if a buyer doesn't opt for "insurance" then it's their fault..

You may not agree with that , but that is so as per internationally recognized trade terms. In national and international trade when a company A buys something from company B, there is something in place called Incoterms. They specify exactly when the risk of transport passes from seller to buyer. The seller will stipulate on what basis he sells. If he sells ex works (ex his premises) which is equivalent to most ebay sellers, all costs and risks are upon the buyer from the moment the goods leave the factory of the selling company. The buyer knows this and must pay all transport costs and have his own insurance in place. There is no if and no but.

If a company sells on basis CIF (cost insurance freight) the selling company will cover all expenses including insurance up to specified destination and therefore bears the risk to the specified destination.

Again, there is no if and no but.

 

Most ebay sellers sell on the basis buyer pays posting costs and seller can't be responsible for items lost or damaged in the post unless buyer pays for recorded / insured delivery. This is clear to a buyer and when bidding, these terms are accepted by placing a bid.

Paypal should not and really cannot override that with their own rubbish terms , making the seller responsible for items that were sent uninsured as per the terms of the contract the seller has in place with the buyer.

 

Also the terms of paypal to have online tracking facility for items shipped is not possible for international transactions unless a courier service like DHL or TNT is used. The average cost for this is £30.- - £50.- even for small and light items. I doubt anybody would get much bids on their average collectable if they put £50.- postage costs down in order to fulfill paypal's requirements

 

The best thing is not to use them at all

All I use them for these days is to pay my ebay fees and that's it.

[taz_in_2001]

...reverse a transaction?

 

for instance, lets say you sell an ipod on ebay for £150. you recieve the money to your paypal account and send the item with special delivery.

 

then paypal removes the £150 because the buyer used a stolen credit card.

 

you are then £150 out of pocket, and minus the ipod.

 

whats more, if you have already transferred the money into your bank account, paypal will still reverse the transaction, leaving your paypal account in the red, which eventually they will pass onto a DCA.

 

surely the problem is the fact that paypal allow people to use stolen credit cards to pay for stuff - where are the security checks?

 

advice please.

 

I had this exact problem happen to me although it was only £8 I phoned the police, paypal etc as I knew this person didn't have her credit card stolen I even phoned her but then they changed their phone number so I was and still am through want of trying to get it back, out of pocket

[Sandy483]

Paypal are a Law unto them selves and if you could find a Law to tackle them with, you would never find a way to contact them for any kind of structual correspondence.

 

and Ebay are as ignorant and have the same correspondence defect.

 

My view is Paypal should be closed down, the amount of money they are making from people must be in the £1000's.

 

IN this day and age why are stolen credit cards even getting through the system.?

 

My Paypal account is now full of cobwebs, and will not be getting dusted off anytime in the future.

 

Sorry i can't be of more help, all they make me want to do is scream,

The only advise i could offer is get away from the whole Ebay/Paypal thing ASAP.

[Mark_Blackpool]

PayPal's behaviour is normal for merchant/card processors.

 

I am not sure how many people realise this, but if you bought something with a stolen card (whether it was reported stolen at that moment or shortly after) the retailer will get the money initially, then the card processor (Streamline, PDQ, whoever) simply takes it back from the retailer. It is the retailer's problem. In this context, it is your problem if you sold something on eBay and accepted a card (as opposed to cash or cheque) payment.

 

On top of this both you and any retailer using merchant services pay a fee to the Merchant processor for this as well.

 

Retailers have complained about this for years. The "answer" was supposedly Chip & PIN which brings about "liability shift". In other words, the merchant processor will pay up.

 

In the context of online transactions however you can't key in your PIN. Or at least up until now it has been rare. However various systems called "3DSecure" or "Third Man" are supposed to sort this. When you buy online you see a popup window generated by your Bank. You key the PIN into that. It does not go outside the Bank. The Bank tell the retailer yes or no.

 

When that is in place - supposedly - the Merchant providers will then accept liability and pay up.

 

Until then, a debit or credit card payment is *not a guarantee of payment* for you or any retailer. It is better to insist on cheque or BACS payment.

[HydraUK]

In this context, it is your problem if you sold something on eBay and accepted a card (as opposed to cash or cheque) payment.

 

I don't agree at all. The OP accepted payment by PAYPAL, the responsibility should lie with them to ensure that the card is valid.

 

They became the 'preferred' payment method in EBAY long before the merger...the trust element almost makes them 'fiduciary', yet they regularly penalise those who repose that trust.

 

I don't know about retailers having transactions reversed, never happened that way for me, might be a new thing. I recall there was a lot of stink about the fact that retailers weren't diligent enough at spotting stolen cards because they didn't give a toss - they got paid regardless.

 

PAYPAL could get around a lot of this type of fraud by simply NOT allowing delivery to any address other than the one registered to the card. No valid address, no sale.

[Sandy483]

Went into the council web site last week to find a number to ring them to pay by card.

 

It has a form on there, It asked for my Pin number, to me it looked like a basic documnet that would be printed out the other end.

 

Naturaly I paid in cash 2 days later, its just so much easier you pay you get a reciept and walk away, no lingering worrys.

 

I do hope you manage to get your money back soon.