euro car parks ANPR PCN - overstay - Meadows Retail car park Chelmsford

[Jackace]

Hi,

 

I hope someone can just confirm my next steps for this please?

 

1 Date of the infringement 28/09/2022

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 05/10/2022

 

3 Date received I believe this was the 10/10/2022 or 11/10/2022

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Y

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y

 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] N

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A

 

7 Who is the parking company? Euro car parks

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] The Meadows Retail Park, Chelmsford, Essex (I believe the full address is: Wharf Road, Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom, CM2 6LU)

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

POPLA

 

  I am the registered keeper of the car but not the driver,

 

a ticket was purchased but only covered 13:43 - 15:43.  The car entered the carpark at 13:34 and exited 16:16 (entered 9 mins before ticket was purchased and left 33 mins after it expired).  The appeal window closes on the 19th October.

 

  From what I have heard, one of the payment meters wasn't working (for what it's worth but no evidence of this)

 

I assume the issue is the time the ticket ends to the time the car leaves the premises.  

 

To my mind this is a pay and display car park and even states this, the charge is for the permit/ticket not covering the time of parking

 

ecp have provided no evidence of the car being parked for this extra period of time, simply a picture of the number plate as the car left (or at least I assume that is the case as the rest of the picture is removed?!?). 

 

I guess this is an eye opener to the world of ANPR as I thought a warden would need to capture the car being parked after the permit/ticket ended rather than when the car left the site.

 

  From my time looking around the forum I assume I shouldn't be paying the charge (even at a reduced rate) or even bother appealing but I am confused if this is a blanket guide for all? 

 

If this is correct I assume people here are always able to find a loop hole in the claim, but is this the case or am I mistaken? 

 

From examples I have seen there is usually some genuine excuses but for me it's more a lack of understand between pay and display and ANPR,

 

am I liable for this as the registered keeper and have no way of avoiding it? 

 

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

PCN_PDF_inc_Pics_new.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

Welcome to the Forum.

The first thing to do is to erase your reg. number from the PCN-it's the one below the pictures of your car entering and leaving the car park.

 

The ANPR has recorded the time of entering and leaving the car park. The ticket paid for was for one hour and your car stayed, according to their records for 2 hours and 42 minutes ignoring the nine minutes between the arrival and paying for the ticket which is too much of a time to be able to argue away unless the car broke down or one of the occupants of the car had an illness or injury while there. Apart for one ticket machine being out of order was there another reason for the delay?

 

Thank you for posting the PCN which is often where the parking companies mess up on their wording, so that they cannot transfer the alleged debt from the driver to the keeper. The only thing that is possible with your PCN is that the timings from the ANPR cameras does not indicate the actual parking time since it can take several minutes to find a spot to park, manoeuvre into the spot and later leave the parking spot and drive to the exit which on a busy day perhaps pulling into a busy main road could take some time but one hour and 42 minutes is pushing it too much so very doubtful.. 

Euro parks are not particularly litigious and tend not to take motorists to Court.

 

I am pleased to see that you have already been looking at possible avenues to avoid paying the crooks and there are often many arguments that can be used to squash their PCNs. Yours is not one that I can see  at the moment. But it may be that their signage at the car park does not comply with the Regulations or the signs contradict one another as well as the sign at the entrance not advising that the car park makes a contract with the motorist. Also the contract may not  allow them to take motorists to court etc.

 

If the driver or yourself could return to the car park and get legible  pictures of the signs at the entrance, on the surrounding  walls or notices as well as at the ticket machines-especially where the signs differ in wording from others.

 

 

 

 

[Jackace]

Thank you for your reply.   Also thanks for pointing out the reg I missed, however how do I edit my post?  I don't seem to have an option?

The thing I would like to point out is that the ticket was for 2 hours, it was valid for 13:43 to 15:43.

 

so the issue is the 33 mins after the ticket expired, I should be able to visit over the weekend to take some pictures of signage. 

 

But as you have stated, there isn't much ground to complain other than the cameras not necessarily capturing the car parked just the time it left. 

 

I was personally surprised as I have often got back to the car 10 mins after the ticket expired and when thankfully not seen not pcn on the screen I have relaxed and taken my time,

 

in this instance I'd imagine the time was unloading and getting ready for the 40 min journey home.

 

do you think I should simply appeal anyway but ultimately pay the reduced rate when it is obviously rejected?

 

Can an admin delete my first attachment? 

 

The edit option appears to disappear after a few mins so I can't do anything with it now (I just have Quote and Report)

 

[lookinforinfo]

You could erase the PCN and rewrite it? I have also told admin.

 

 

Sorry about my calculations I read it as 13.43 -14.43.

 

That makes matters a little bit better as the outstanding time is now down to  42 minutes and then there is a five minute consideration period at the beginning of the visit and another 10 minute grace period at the end which knocks at least fifteen minutes off and both those times are minimum figures.

 

So a machine out of order helps to reduce the time .

 

There  are  new regulations coming into force that will supercede the Protection of Freedoms Act -probably next year.

 

One of them is that ANPR times cannot be used to establish the actual parking time.

 

There was a case last year when a woman was held up on Christmas eve because of the jam trying to leave the car park at the same time trying to get on to a busy road.

 

And of course if you are waiting to get on to a space because the car park is full, or if you are waiting for a disabled spot or parent and child space to become available that can also ad to the time.

 

Other things are getting young children in and out of the car especially where seat belts are used.

 

You also mentioned unloading -did they have a lot to stack in the car? All these factors can help to justify the overstay.

 

Now although the Regs are not in force yet and the fact that the extra periods are the  minimum,

 

some Judges may well accept the overrun now since it is clarifying the current Act for the use of ANPR times.

[Jackace]

Unfortunately I can't even see an option to delete the thread either, hopefully an Admin can help.

 

Your last point is pretty much my only answer in that an anpr shouldn't be used to estimate a stay and personally I can well understand taking 33 mins to sort everything out and get ready for a long journey home but that's just my opinion obviously,

 

I guess it's whether legally that makes any difference.  Ultimately I wasn't the drive so can't be sure (as much as i suspect ecp can't be either). The fact it is coming in to law is nice to see and in my mind a precedent is set but if it's not come in to play yet does that help at all?

 

I will get the signage pics this afternoon and post back later, it would be nice to confirm a mistake which voids the charge but I'm not holding my breath. 

 

The idea of them losing about £1 in potentially overstaying compared to a £100 fine (reduced to £60) is sickening...

 

it makes no sense how we've gone this amount of time allowing it...

 

why can't there just be the parking charge along with reasonable admin fee? 

 

Sorry I digress. 

 

Thank you.

[lookinforinfo]

I totally agree with your comments.

 

In fact i would go further and question the use of these parking companies in any car park.

 

All they do is rip off customers and take money from motorists at outrageous cost for often overstaying for a few minutes.

 

They are complete parasites and add nothing of value except to themselves

[dx100uk]

pdf swapped.

 

be very careful

its NOT A FINE

 

it's only a speculative invoice

 

and where there is an ANPR system you wont get a warden ticket for overstay, else they'd be no point in the ANPR system at all, think about it.

 

i would not appeal still.

 

 

[Jackace]

This is the signage... the notice in red on the last picture is so small it's crazy... here is what my phone extracted:

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE

EURO CAR PARKS IS SOLELY ENGAGED TO PROVIDE A SPACE MAXIMISATION SCHEME

WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CAR PARK SURFACE OTHER MOTOR VEHICLES.

DAMAGE OR LOSS FROM MOTOR VEHICLES OR USERS SAFETY UNLESS SUCH LOSS OR DAMAGE IS CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF EURO CAR PARKS LTD

THS LAND IS PRIVATE PROPERTY

NO PARKING WITHOUT THE AUTHORITY WHETHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED OF THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE

IF YOU FAIL TO ADHERE TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS YOU WILL BE ISSUED WITH A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE

 

VEHICLE KEEPER DETAILS MAY BE REQUESTED FROM THE DVLA IF AUTOMATIC NUMBER PLATE RECOGNITION IS IN OPERATION, OR IF THE PARKING CHARGE NOTICE PLACED ON YOUR VEHICLE REMAINS UNPAID

 

ADOITIONAL CHARGES WILL BE INCURRED FROM FURTHER CIVIL ACTION BEING TAKEN VEHICLES PARKED CAUSING OBSTRUCTION OR IN UNAUTHORISED AREAS CIN ACCORDANCE WITH ADVERTISED TERMS AND CONDITIONS) MAY
BE REL OCATED TO AN ALTERNATIVE POSITION WITHIN THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY. ABANDONED VEHICLES MAY BE REMOVED AND DISPOSED OF AT A REGISTERED RECYCLING CENTRE APPROPRIATE NOTICES WILL BE PLACED ON SUCH VEHICLES THE REGISTERED KEEPER FAILS TO RESPOND TO NOTICES SERVED TO THE REGISTERED KEEPERS
ADDRESS FOR ALL ENQUIRIES CONTACT ECP 24HR HELP DESK 02075633000 COMPANY REGISTRATION NO 1270612

Signage.pdf

 

Looking at the signage, there is free 30 mins parking whereby you don't need a ticket, i think this could be my golden ticket.

 

  I read that this gives 30m parking time on top of the 2h ticket purchased, (plus 15 mins to park and leave grace period)?   this would bring the total allowed time to 2h 45m, the car spent a total of 2h 42m there.

 

This idea is technically but in practice would it be suggested that the 30m free parking has to be applied before the ticket start time?  I don't think it specifically states that, so I could argue in this case it was applied once the ticket expired so would give 30m extra?

 

It certainly gives me some confidence in a reasonable excuse but I would really appreciate some guidance on if this could be pursued?  Also would it be worth appealing to see if ecp give up on this basis or is that showing my cards too early?

 

I can't see I have broken any contract or lost the firm money when the total time is less that theoretical possible, it's a question of whether that would stand up in court?

 

Plus one of the machines was out of order (and still is)

[Nicky Boy]

I would say that you're quite correct Jackace.

Nothing on their alleged "contract", (the signage) stipulates when the free 30 minutes is to be applied.

 

They might, as you say try to "suggest" it applies before the paid time, but IT DOESN'T SAY THAT IN THE CONTRACT...

Edited October 17, 2022 by Nicky Boy

[lookinforinfo]

The signs at the entrance do not offer a contract-rather an offer to treat.

I imagine that the crooks would argue that if you stay for no more than 30 minutes there is no charge but if you intend to stay longer there is no free period.

As the signage is ambiguous and the entrance signs do not offer a contract nor clarify the 30 minute free period, motorists are able to select the most advantageous option available.

I see you have already decided your interpretation.

[Jackace]

Thank you guys.  @lookinforinfo, that's a good point and hadn't considered they could suggest it would be 30m free or pay to park.  You mentioned about no contract, are you saying they have no right to invoice me?  Also I do notice there is no 'no return within' so you could simply drive out and pack in every 30m. 

 

My only conversation now is whether to appeal as ignoring feels weird, is there any harm in doing this?

 

 

 

[Nicky Boy]

Also, on the miniscule writing at the bottom of their sign, the first sentence is

"EURO CAR PARKS IS SOLELY ENGAGED TO PROVIDE A SPACE MAXIMISATION SCHEME".

 

"Solely engaged" appears to be a very specific exclusive statement.

 

I can see that it would probably involve the layout of the car park and painting pretty boxes on the floor.

 

But, is the statement exclusive enough to prevent them doing anything else, such as using ANPR and issuing invoices?

[FTMDave]

So let's do the maths. 

 

0:05 consideration period + 2:00 paid for + 0:30 free + 0:10 grace period = 2:45, which would mean no overstay.

 

Your choice, you can cough up, or transfer liability to the driver and remove yourself from the loop, or refuse to pay given the above.  As LFI says, Euro Car Parks aren't particularly litigious.  No guarantees of course.

[Jackace]

Thank you. 

 

I am about to send off the appeal,

 

I will do this today but can anyone please confirm if I should amend any wording so as to not cause myself issues later?

 

Firstly note a receipt for the 2 hours parking is still in the car, purchased 13:43 28/10/22.

  The charge notice states the purchased ticket did 'not cover the date and time of parking',

 

however the signage on site clearly shows there is 30 mins free parking in this car park which doesn't need a ticket, there is no stipulation of if the free period is before or after the purchased ticket starts/ends,

 

for this reason I believe the car was parked within the allotted time.

  Bear in mind there is a grace period of 5 minutes to get parked and 10 minutes to leave, in total this allows 2h 45m from the time the car could enter to the time it had to leave,

 

by your evidence it shows the car was only in the car park for 2h 42m. Please also note that one of the pay meters was and still is out of order.

 

I request you cancel your charge as the car has not exceed the allotted time in line with the signage on site.

[honeybee13]

We rarely suggest appealing as it can lead to further problems. I don't think anyone has said this to you, have they?

 

Please don't send that unless one of the regulars thinks it's a good idea. I see dx100uk already said not to appeal in post #7.

 

HB

[Jackace]

Thanks for replying so quickly @honeybee13,

 

do you mean that no one has suggested appealing? 

 

So the advice is simply to wait and see if they go all the way with a letter of...? I'm just slightly confused, I don't see any straight answer. 

 

Before posting here I got the impression no pcn would win in court

 

but the replies have lacked the confidence I was expecting so unsettled me a little,

 

obviously I don't want to end up paying more if it did go to court and I lost.

 

I would have thought I'd need to appeal to at least make them aware of their mistake so as much as they may reject it, would likely stop them going all the way,

 

I'd certainly appreciate avoiding it.  If you genuinely think I should just ignore then no problem,

 

I want to make sure rather than assuming, ultimately I'm trying to make sure I'm up to speed with people who see this all the time.  Thank you

[FTMDave]

You wouldn't be sending your letter to an unbiased third party, but to the very charlatans who are trying to fleece you.

 

Do you really believe they would accept your reasoning?

 

 

[Jackace]

@FTMDave to be fair I kinda did lol. 

 

From my view I can't see how they couldn't accept it but i take your point. 

 

If I knew legally I'd feel more comfortable but I still have the idea that surely they should be made aware. 

 

I was of the opinion that if they reject the appeal then I'd know what the situation is rather than be wondering... but if the appeal may affect things then obviously I'd refrain. 

 

Thanks

[Nicky Boy]

Jackace,

 

You really should start reading up on other threads, so you know who what / who you are dealing with.

 

These vermin issue thousands of invoices and will obviously get thousands of appeals with similar reasoning to your own.

 

They fully know their own shortcomings, but will ignore them and simply pursue motorists for the cash no matter what.

 

They are just chasing the dollar.

[honeybee13]

To add to what the others have said, the more you tell the PPC before any possible court case [there may not be one], the more you give them to work with to try and defeat you.

 

If they send a Letter Before Claim/Action, we'll help you to craft a reply that shows them you'll be trouble if they go to court. Sit on your hands until then.

 

HB

[Jackace]

Got it, that was really the part I was looking for which makes a lot of sense. 

 

Honestly all your feedback it's much appreciated and can't thank you all enough for your time and effort.   

 

I'll ignore for now and make sure to keep the paper work safe.

 

  I'll update the thread as and when I get more junk through the post from them.

 

Take care.

[dx100uk]

And get reading up here 

 

Dx

[Jackace]

I assume this is an ignore letter?  Received this today, it's my 2nd letter in total now.

 

"Final Notification Letter"

 

FinalNotificatioLetter-091122.pdf

[honeybee13]

Unless it is titled 'Letter Before Claim/Action' or it's a claim form from Northampton, you can ignore.

 

ETA: We did suggest you read other threads here so that you understand the process and as far as I can see, you've only read your own. It's important to read around.

 

HB

[Jackace]

Thanks @honeybee13, I did look at a number of threads which is why i was pretty sure it was to be ignored, it's just nice to get confirmation as it's pretty stressful.