Lost TfL Apprentice Oyster with season ticket on journey - Got Penalty Charge

[Stigy]

Hi,

 

Bearing in mind the requirement to hold a ticket (or Oyster Card in your daughter’s case) hasn’t been met (technically), the Penalty Fare Notice was correctly issued. The whole ethos behind Byelaw 18 is that it sets the requirement to buy a ticket before travelling, and/or be able to produce a ticket on demand. The fact that one cannot produce a ticket may well be that they have lost said ticket, or it may be that they ‘lent it’ to a mate to use.

 

I have a couple of questions here;

 

1. How old is your daughter? 

2. In what way did the member of staff ‘read her the riot act’ and subsequently have your daughter in tears?

 

The fact remains here that the notice appears to have been issued in-line with the set down policies etc. It’s worth noting that the Penalty Fare is a means of disposing of a matter by way of few, and is a civil remedy for an otherwise criminal matter. Your daughter had committed an offence, albeit unwittingly or so it seems. This was the most appropriate course of action. If the member of staff thought she was deliberately out to defraud them, she’d have been reported and potentially be looking as a Magistrates’ Court Simmons (assuming she’s old enough).

 

So to Summarise;

 

By all means appeal the notice, and I’d never dissuade anyone from doing so as it’s their right. However, bear in mind that irrespective if you have proof the card was tapped in at the start of a journey, it doesn’t Prove that the card was in your daughter’s pocession.

 

complain to TfL if you wish too of course, but you’ll need specifics other than ‘she was read the riot act’.

 

[Stigy]

22 minutes ago, tony3x said:

My daughter is 18 and the inspector basically accused her of lying even though he could see she was upset - typical of the type of bully that do these jobs as I am sure if it was someone a bit older his attitude may not have been the same.

 

The penalty is for 'no ticket or pass' which as you say is technically true but I really can't see how they can penalise someone for losing a pass when we can prove that it was used to tap in and not used since. Quite willing to go to court as long as it remains a civil matter, regardless of cost as its the principle that is important to me.

 

Appeal has been submitted along with her journey history that shows the tap in but no tap out.

 

I was a couple of trains behind her so asked at the originating station if anything had been handed in but nothing, the staff were all very helpful and all thought that the ticket will be cancelled. Fingers crossed.

 

If your daughter appeals and loses (I say your daughter because it’s her responsibility as an adult), she will need to pay the amount due. If this remains unpaid, the notice will be cancelled and it will go to court. However this will be under the original Byelaw (18(2) more than likely) which is a strict liability matter, meaning there’s no real defence to it. This is a criminal matter so won’t be kept ‘civil’ as the PF was initially.

 

I would be very careful how you broach this, as you weren’t there. You’re quick to criticise the staff member and to be honest all revenue staff by saying they’re typically ‘bullies’, but not only is that an uneducated and unfounded assumption made by you, it won’t do you any favours having this attitude when complaining. Don’t tar all staff with the same brush. I don’t know what you do for a living, but if I insinuated you were a bully, I’m sure you’d take umbrage. You’re also stating these occurrences as fact when, again, you weren’t there. There’s good and bad in all walks of life.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Stigy

[Stigy]

1 hour ago, tony3x said:

So my daughter approaches a staff member and is reduced to tears by his attitude, handled differently and, although the outcome is the same regarding the 'offence' my daughter walks away feeling differently.

 

While I was not there my daughter has a very good recollection of what happened as well as phoning me straight away, I stand by my thoughts that the inspector would have handled it differently with someone older. The way you deal with people in difficult situations says a lot about the person, a bit of empathy goes a long way.

 

Handled differently in comparison to who? Which aspect of the staff member’s attitude reduced your daughter to tears?

 

I’m not a revenue inspector but I deal with everyone consistently, whilst also applying an amount of discretion where required. Would your daughter have been dealt with in this way with me dealing with her? Maybe, but I wasn’t there so can’t say for sure (although I don’t issue PFs I report people for offences).

 

The penalty amount I believe is the latter, £80 or £40 within 2-weeks these days.

[Stigy]

48 minutes ago, tony3x said:

I understand your defence of the inspectors attitude now.

 

Handled more compassionately - nothing to do with different to who.

 

An 18 year old approaches a member of staff to tell the truth and not try to get through the barrier (which is not overly difficult in London rush hour) and instead of being a bit compassionate and explaining the situation with regard the penalty fare he makes her feel like she has done something wrong - which no doubt you agree with. Not my idea of how to deal with the public!

 

I will not be continuing this debate with you as you quite obviously feel that the inspectors attitude was justified.

 

So you come here for advice, and expect people independent of the industry to help you? That’s not how it works. You should expect people to tell you the truth here and not simply tell you what you want to hear.

 

All I’m guilty of here is actually trying to help you, in a realistic approach. If you’re blinkered by what your daughter has said, that’s your problem as far as I’m concerned. Rather than getting on your high horse, how about a “thanks for your help”? It’s common courtesy to acknowledge somebody when they’ve advised you, not just get on the back foot.

 

It now becomes ever more evident that this issue here probably wasn’t the member of staff, if your daughter’s attitude is anything like yours.

 

I don’t get paid to be here, I’m doing this in my own time because I like to help where I can. Most people appreciate it.

 

You’re welcome, by the way.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Stigy

[Stigy]

39 minutes ago, tony3x said:

But you haven't really given any advice, you have just thrown rules/regs at me. I just asked if anyone had any experience of the appeal, you obviously haven't. You have not advised me of anything.

 

Still defending the member of staff when you wasn't there (unless you are the person involved!).

 

Please explain what about my attitude you do not like, because I didn't suck up to you. What you have said has not taken this forward at all unless it was to massage your own ego about how much you 'think' you know!

 

You really don’t get it, do you? I have offered you experience based advice, I just haven’t spoon fed you. If you want it in black and white, then yes, I have heard of people appealing and having their PFs withdrawn. How does that help you though? That’s a rhetorical questions.

 

Telling you about the fact that should the matter go to court, it would be a criminal matter, as far as I’m concerned is more beneficial, as you indicated you’d fight it at court as long as it remained civil.

 

regarding your attitude; You just come across as an entitled snowflake to be honest. I’ve bulleted it nonetheless though - 

 

• Tarring staff with the same brush, indicating that the job of an RPI attracts bullies, isn’t helpful and is frankly untrue. 

 

• The need to put things in quotes, indicating that something is my view and not the truth, is a poor and uninformed assumption

 

• The lack of a simple, “thanks” or “cheers for your help” after even my first reply, is bad mannered.

 

• the fact that in your initial post here you have simply assumed the PF would be written off, again hints at you inability to listen to reason and an over all attitude.

 

• The fact that I’ve found it necessary to spend 20-minutes writing these bullet points.

 

A couple of final thoughts;

 

I know full well some staff are unprofessional and frankly should not be in the job, but we should tar everybody with the same brush. I’d say 90% of the posts I’ve seen of this nature indicate staff were rude and aggressive, and that percentage simply doesn’t ring true. I will advise never to start an appear off in this way, as it looks like excuses...and...

 

I don’t write anything I THINK I know. I only write about what I ACTUALLY know about. And no, the staff member wasn’t me

Edited April 8, 2019 by Stigy