Do I have to make payments on a voluntary charge - HFC cc debt

[blue_eyes777]

1 minute ago, Andyorch said:

" surely Weightmans would have threatened me with something if they had a CCJ and I was ignoring them?  "

 

Not necessarily as they had the VC to secure the debt...so no need to chase you for payment.Anyway given that nobody has any records now its really irrelevant because you have the document stating they would set a side if you agreed to a VC...which you did.

Right - so I can just sit tight and ignore rather than prod the bear. 

[Andyorch]

Thats what I would do..and have been telling you for the last week

 

If in the future you decide to move and they ask for their money...you simply reply what debt ...its now statute barred as you set a side the judgment and restarted the Statute of limitations. 

[blue_eyes777]

Just now, Andyorch said:

Thats what I would do..and have been telling you for the last week

 

If in the future you decide to move and they ask for their money...you simply reply what debt ...its now statute barred as you set a side the judgment and restarted the Statute of limitations. 

Thanks Andy - you have been telling me that. Now that I know no records exist anywhere and Weightmans may or may not come back to me, (but cannot see them admitting reneging on our agreement) I can rest easy knowing that MC cannot do anything - it is just bluff and bluster.

 

Thanks to all of you guys - especially Andy and DX for magnificent and patient help. 

[blue_eyes777]

Just heard from a lawyer that I consulted with last week before I posted here and they are still looking at the situation -  but the colleague I spoke to briefly -  now seems to think that MC could still take me to court and enforce the charging order before the 12 years expires and then after this time enforce it against me.

 

She felt that the charging order means that the debt cannot be statute barred even though the CCJ may have been set aside!

 

Now she did say this was following a brief review of the documentation I sent over - which you've all seen - and they would get back to me later in the week following a full review.

 

I totally feel that you guys are right as you are so experienced in this type of thing, but how would you rebut what she said?

[Andyorch]

Just running through your thread back to  2009 did you ever get a copy of the CCA ?

 

Also you said you were still paying the mortgage....is your property joint owned and this debt was in your name only or joint debt ?

[blue_eyes777]

2 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Just running through your thread back to  2009 did you ever get a copy of the CCA ?

No. I asked for it in 2007 and I was told by Weightmans that I could have a reconstituted one as it didn't exist. and last week the document from HFC bank said that it did not exist.

Also you said you were still paying the mortgage....is your property joint owned and this debt was in your name only or joint debt ?

MY name and my debt.

[blue_eyes777]

"A copy of the original credit card agreement is not enclosed as it is not held electronically or in a relevant manual filing system.                                    If it is held it will be in a manual format in a non relevant filing system (as defined  by the UK Data Privacy Laws).                                       HSBC is satisfied its search procedure meets the Information Commissioner's guidance."

 

From HFC Bank,22nd March 2019.

[Andyorch]

Okay thanks....

 

In response to your post #79.

 

"but the colleague I spoke to briefly -  now seems to think that MC could still take me to court and enforce the charging order before the 12 years expires and then after this time enforce it against me."

 

So firstly 12 years does not come into this its not a mortgage its an unsecured credit card debt which was secured by way of a voluntary charge.Therefore with regards to limitations its 6 years.

 

" She felt that the charging order means that the debt cannot be statute barred even though the CCJ may have been set aside! "

 

A Charge has no bearing on a debt with regards to limitations apart as a means to secure it...but there is no expiry of a charge.

 

 " If the debtor is being cooperative, for example agreeing a repayment schedule, it may be preferable to agree a voluntary charge on the debtor’s property. This can easily be achieved using form CH1 (available from the Land Registry website) and avoids the time and expense of court proceedings. Be aware that the registration of the voluntary charge may require the consent of existing charge holders "

 

Do you know if permission was sought with your Mortgage providers ?

 

Im thinking out of the box here because yours is a very peculiar situation and not the norm......there is no Judgment CCJ to secure

 

Interesting reading.....

 

https://www.i-m-a.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/ima-ljdoc-195 17.pdf

 

http://www.legalmortgage.co.uk/limitation/4532753368

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/58/section/15

 

 

 

 

[blue_eyes777]

"Do you know if permission was sought with your Mortgageproviders ?"

 

I very much doubt it as I wasn't asked to seek permission from my lender and I am sure that they didn't approach me as I have never heard from my lender on the subject.

So it could be that this has fallen foul of the lender requiring consent.

 

Also - your links are fascinating - this in particular, though I am not sure that this is applicable to me as this was about a mortgage:

"Therefore, as more than 12 years has passed without acknowledgment or payment, the whole of your client’s debt is statute barred. The debt purchaser’s rights to repossess are statute barred and its rights under the secured agreement are extinguished. The fact that the debt is statute barred does not mean that it does not exist and does not, in law, stop the debt purchaser trying to recover it by any means other than court action. The debt purchaser is, therefore, entitled to pursue the debt by any legitimate methods that do not involve court action. However, as there had been no contact with your client for more than 12 years, under 3.14(b) of the recently revised OFT Debt Collection Guidance, it should not continue to press for payment once your client has said she will not be paying the debt. Continuing to pursue the debt in this situation could amount to harassment under s40(1) Administration of Justice Act 1970." 

 

Mine was not a judgement debt - it was voluntary of course - so perhaps my case is a new one of its type. There doesn't seem to be a precedent,case/statutory law to help me decide!

Edited April 8, 2019 by blue_eyes777

[Andyorch]

Yes this is the problem and confusion as when you try to get information on secured loans/Charging Orders...which yous now is because of the VC...it naturally assumes that its a mortgage.

 

Now a mortgage or secured loan does not require a judgment to be able to force sale.......but the debt in question which the Charge secures is now statute barred by over 4 years.

 

Now the next quark.....because there are no records or documentation in connection to this debt nobody really knows what type of debt it actually was...so thinking outside of the box again it could be that section 15/17 of the Statute Of Limitations could come into play....

 

But then again they may never request an order for forced sale but if they did what documents could they produce to support the claim....to execute a charging order you have to corroborate the debt connected.......or normally disclose the Notice of Judgment..claim number judgment date etc......there isn't one.

 

[blue_eyes777]

Indeed as though there is a claim number, no documentation exists. 

It is actually a fascinating case. 

 

Though I will still have to decide what to do if MC start threatening me...  

[Andyorch]

We will see..the next letter may be in red crayon.

 

But dont forget number 8 of the CH1 specifically states " as may be agreed "...well you have not agreed nor do you wish to agree a payment schedule,,the debt is secure and they may get it in another 40 years..if they are still operational .

 

Now 9K in 40 years will be worth ........

[blue_eyes777]

 

Indeed. 

I think the most concerning thing for me was the prospect of a sale being forced and I think the CH1 has precluded this. 

[cruzhughes]

This has been interesting I’m stuck with a Lloyds equitable charge on property from 2006. no records held anywhere. Debt has been sold no CCA. But the charge is still there. No closer to getting it removed