Parking Eye - Claim form - Rishworth Centre Retail Park, Dewsbury

[dx100uk]

well let EB comment on things when they pop in later

don't worry about the AOS

 

its always best to defend all regardless to anything you might think say or do or not later..

 

even if you do eventually pay or lose or give in [hope you don't!]

 

least we've got you moving the right way now....

 

some of these things are even a puzzler to me too.

 

but I know never to give in mind..

[Alipeeps]

Oooh it's interesting reading. that planning application. I particularly like the diagram that shows that the bottom of the pole-mounted signs will be 2.1m above the ground, complete with a little human figure, for scale (which nicely shows how impossible it would be for anyone to read the small print at that distance! )

[Alipeeps]

well let EB comment on things when they pop in later

don't worry about the AOS

 

its always best to defend all regardless to anything you might think say or do or not later..

 

even if you do eventually pay or lose or give in [hope you don't!]

 

least we've got you moving the right way now....

 

some of these things are even a puzzler to me too.

 

but I know never to give in mind..

 

That's the thing,

I SO didn't want to be bullied by them and give in and pay

but I was just so worried that I didn't know how best to defend, or what the implications of defending might be

... and of course that's what they rely on to make their money,

 

 

that people like me will be too scared/busy/ignorant to defend and will feel like they have no other option but to pay.

[dx100uk]

see you know more than me now....

[honeybee13]

Alipeeps, I think you're doing well with this.

 

Stick with it please and ask all the questions you need to.

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

You need to take photos of the signs with someone holding a scale to show whether they are correctly mounted.

 

If they are in the wrong place or at the wrong height then they dont have planning permissions.

 

The BPA has its own Code of Practice that its members must adhere to.

They are really not good enough to cover all of the wording you would expect to see in a contract but if the signs dont meet this minimum then they aret going to impress a judge so measure the size of the letters as well.

 

The colour of the signs and what is in the background is also important

so if it is against a tree or partially obscured by some other street furniture so it cant be read from the drivers seat when entering the land from the public highway then it may well be deficient.

 

Do get a full copy of the planning application and consent though,

there should be drawings and dimensions for you to cogitate

[Alipeeps]

Thank you for this. I have been and took photos today...

as best I could on my own with a measuring tape!

 

The signs meet the stated dimensions on the planning permission (700mm by 600mm - except the one at the entrance which is more like 800mm by 600mm) but they absolutely do NOT meet the height measurement stated on the planning permission.

 

The planning permission states that,

for the signs mounted on poles,

the bottom edge of the sign will be 2.1m from the ground.

 

The ones I measured are not.

They all seem to be at slightly different heights (the sign at the entrance is at 2.13m not 2.1m) but the best one by FAR is the sign nearest where I parked..

. the one I said was so high up that even standing right under it you can't read the small print T&Cs? Yeah... it's at 2.39m!!

 

So am I right in thinking that, as the signs are not in compliance with the details of the planning permission, they don't actually HAVE planning permission for them?

 

I've no idea what actual font size the small print on the signs is

but you can see from the attached photo how small it is.

 

I've downloaded the planning application form and the relevant drawings (showing the proposed height of the signs etc).

 

 

Also the sign at the entrance is placed under some trees (see my original photos earlier in the thread)

 

which does mean it (at the date of the incident, which was in August) is in the shade of the trees which makes it harder to see/read.

 

Am going to try and get the CPR 31:14 letter sent off tomorrow. What are my next steps in drafting my defence?

Car Park Signage Photos - Measured.pdf

[MrHat]

Following with interest.

 

Always great to read how CAG removes the fear. And good to see Alipeeps losing the fear.

 

Worst that can happen is that you pay the claim (on time). Good luck. It's all a game of poker "who thinks who has the best hand"

[ericsbrother]

if you had held the tape measure up against the letters we could have seen waht the font size was.

 

 

I did say measure the size of the letters

so now you are having to go back and do that.

 

 

Measure each different font size rather than each line

[Alipeeps]

Sorry, I'm confused.

I did take a photo with the tape measure up against the letters of the small print T&Cs.

 

 

That photo was the closest I could get to show the size of the T&Cs text and there's no way I could reach to hold the tape measure up against the writing on the other sections of the sign..

 

 

. these things are c. 2.1 metres off the ground (that's to the bottom edge) and even at 5' 10" I struggle to reach em with the tape to take photos.

 

 

This was the best I could do short of going back with a stepladder! :/

 

I've taken some measurements off the photo of the measuring tape with the small T&Cs print and the letter t is coming out at just over 1mm and the letter e at just over 2mm.

If we take the larger measurement, that equates to a font size of around 6pt.

 

To get measurements of the other fonts on the signs I genuinely will have to go back with a friend and a stepladder.

Font Size.pdf

[ericsbrother]

Just push the tape up past the letters and get someone else to photograph it.

You can afford to pay someone £100 to do this if you beat them and still come out on top (you could even claim their expenses back).

 

 

This is not a game,

you either do it all wholeheartedly or you pay them now and save yourself the bother of the fight.

 

the signs say see other signs for T&C's

so we need to see those signs as well in full,

 

 

how many there are and where they are.

Also as it is P&D what does the machine say?

 

How far are these signs from the entrance?

Again, measure either by pacing it out or with your tape.

 

As it stands the signs shown are not a contract but an "invitation to treat".

The contract is only formed when you feed the meter and accept the terms there.

 

 

If the meter is faulty the position is that no contract entered into

Edited December 13, 2016 by dx100uk

[Alipeeps]

I will have to try and go back with my husband at the weekend and take more photos. He can hold the tape in place and I'll use my digital SLR and zoom in.

 

So that I make sure I get this right - do I need to measure the font size of every different size of writing on the signs? Also, to make sure, is it the width or the height of the letters that determines font size? I've realised it's probably the height, is that right?

 

The photos previously shared in this thread show the signs in full - the one at the entrance and an example of the ones in the car park. The planning permission is for a total of 35 signs (6 on the wall of the buildings and the rest mounted on poles) but this number is spread across several different sections of car park within the site. The section I parked in has 1 sign at the entrance and, from memory, 4 or 5 signs on poles and 2-3 on the wall of the building. Actually, the ones on the building are a bit lower down so I might have a better chance of taking detailed photos of the font size on those. I will take photos of where the signs are placed within the car park and will measure the distance from the sign at the entrance to the entrance.

 

It's not a P&D car park though so that's not relevant.

[ericsbrother]

just place the tape measure up the face of the sign so we can see how big the letters are. Do this for each different type of sign. Make sure you have a good photo of the sign at or nearest the entrance and some kind of reference photo to show what you see from the drivers seat of a car when you turn in off the public highway. This may mena standing in the middle of the road for a r/h turn

[Alipeeps]

Have taken a ton of photos and measurements - details are in the document attached.

 

Would appreciate any advice on how to word my defense. Thanks.

Detailed Car Park Photos.pdf

[Alipeeps]

To sum up my measurements of the signage (for those who don't want to download the full document with photos etc).

 

There are 11 signs in the section of car park where I parked - 1 sign at the entrance and 10 identical signs within the car park (2 mounted on the shop wall and 8 on posts).

 

The sign at the entrance is 600mm x 800mm in size (per planning permission it should be 600mm x 700mm) and is mounted on a post situated approx. 3.7m from the kerb of the entrance road. The sign is mounted on the pole with the bottom edge 2.13m from the ground (per planning permission it should be 2.1m).

 

The font sizes on the sign are as follows:

2 Hour Max Stay – 213pt

For use by customers only – 108pt

This car park is private property, see signage in car park for terms & conditions – 108pt

 

The other 10 identical signs within the car park are 600mm x 700mm in size, as they should be, and the font sizes on the signs are as follows:

Rishworth Centre Retail Park – 108pt

2 Hour Max Stay – 156pt

Customer Only Car Park – 100pt

For use only whilst shopping on this site – 71pt

Failure to comply with the terms & conditions will result in a Parking Charge of – 57pt

£100 – 100pt

Parking limited to 2 hours (no return within 2 hours) – 71pt

Park only within marked bays – 57pt

Blue badge holders only in marked bays – 57pt

(Small print T&Cs) – 11pt

 

The signs on the shop wall are mounted at a height of 1.5m from the ground to the bottom edge of the sign.

 

The signs on the posts are mounted at varying heights (per planning permission they should all be mounted at a height of 2.1m to the bottom edge of the sign), as follows:

 

Sign 1 - 1.97m

Sign 2 - 1.94m

Sign 3 - 2.4m (this was the sign nearest to where I parked)

Sign 4 - 2.21.m

Sign 5 - 2.3m

Sign 6 - 2.41m

Sign 7 - 2.22m

Sign 8 - Could not measure as the pole is situated in the middle of a hedge!

 

As you can see, not one of the pole-mounted signs meets the height requirements set out in the planning permission.

 

I would appreciate any advice on what basis I should frame (and how best to word) my defence (signs not meeting planning permission requirements, font sizes on signs not meeting standards (I'm not sure what the standards are for the font sizes?), wording on signs constituting invitation to treat etc?).

 

I need to submit my defence this week so any help is greatly appreciated.

[ericsbrother]

simple terms

the letter sizes in mm

so they can be compared to the Govt recommended sizes.

 

As for the discrepancy in size and height of the signs

the law is not interested in trifles so nothing to argue there.

 

 

now you have to decide if you intend to defend,

if you do then the reasons are the signage at the entrance is not a contract

but an "invitation to treat"

(it refers to other signs that actually offer the contract and you dont have to accept or even read these if you dont wish to consider them as you are not barred from parking by the first sign.)

 

Secondly the signage elsewhwere is insufficiently clear to be "offer and consideration"

(as they cannot be read before you park and in any case are not a matter of compulsion becasue of the sign at the entrance)

 

There are a number of parking cases that have been determined in the motorists favour on such grounds so search for them and look up the difference betweena contract and an invitation to treat so you can expand on it later.

 

 

The 2 points here are enough as worded for the moment,

you will then have a good while to dig up the rest of the evidential stuff you intend to rely on later.

[Alipeeps]

Thanks for that Ericsbrother.

 

Do you have a link to where I can find the Govt recommended font sizes? That would be helpful.

 

I understand that most of the signs are only marginally different from the height they should be at but is it not relevant that the sign nearest to where I parked is a full 30cm higher than it should be - such that, even when standing right under it, I couldn't read the small print T&Cs?

 

But generally, I should be looking at submitting as my defense:

 

The signage at the entrance to the car park does not constitute a contract but rather an invitation to treat as a contract; and

The signage within the car park is insufficiently clear to constitute an offer and consideration.

 

Is that wording okay?

 

Many thanks again.

[ericsbrother]

invitation to treat.

not invitation to treat as a contract.

You have to read up on the difference between an invitation to treat and a contractual offer.

As for size of letters either other posts here mention them so trawl through a few hundred until you find one or look through the govt websites regarding traffic regulations signage

[Alipeeps]

OKay am going to send off my defence form by Special Delivery today so that it arrives tomorrow...

 

This is the wording I am going to put as my defence:

 

"The defendent disputes this claim on the following basis:

 

1. The signage displayed at the entrance to the car park constitutes an invitation to treat, not a contractual offer; and

2. The signage displayed throughout the car park is insufficiently clear to constitute an offer and consideration."

 

Any feedback/amendments on this wording greatly appreciated before I write it out and head to the post office this afternoon.

[ericsbrother]

that is fine. You can registerat moneyclaimonline and watch the progress of things.

[Alipeeps]

that is fine. You can registerat moneyclaimonline and watch the progress of things.

 

Thanks. I used MCOL to submit my acknowledgement so am registered.

[ericsbrother]

then you have doen what is needed at this juncture.

[nihadk]

Any updates to this? I have just received a PCN from the same cowboys at the same location today.

[dx100uk]

always better to start a new thread

of you own please

 

 

dx

[Alipeeps]

Oooh an update!

 

I already received written notification from the courts that they had received my defence form and letting me know that PE have 28 days (from them receiving a copy of my defence form) to let the court know if they wish to proceed with the claim.

 

in today's post I have received, in a hand-addressed envelope, with no covering letter or anything,

a badly photocopied Directions Questionaire that has been completed by PE indicating that they agree to the case being referred to the Small Claims Mediation Service.

 

I can only assume that this has been sent to me by PE,

as presumably any correspondence from the courts would be rather more formal and include some kind of letter to tell me what it's all about.

 

 

This is clearly a form that PE use over and over and over because all the tick boxes and everything on it are photocopied (like, it's a form they've filled out once, a long time ago, and it's been photocopied over and over - and photocopies of the photocopies etc etc) with only the Claim No box left blank and in there they have scribbled by hand the claim number for my case.

 

This is presumably their way of letting me know they've filed this form with the court?

I've not had any correspondence from the court but presumably I can now expect them to write to me asking me if I agree to Small Claims Mediation Service?

 

So my question is... do I?

 

My instinct is no... because what is there to mediate?

I don't think I owe them any money whatsoever for overstaying in a car park by a mere 20 minutes...

and presumably their intention in offering mediation is to get me to accept/agree to pay them a lesser amount than the full claim, so that they at least get some money out of me?

 

 

But will the courts look unfavorably on me because I wouldn't even try mediation?

Should I accept mediation and offer merely to pay them what they could reasonably be calculated to have lost financially by my overstaying for 20 minutes, which would be a matter of pence, I should imagine?

 

Any thoughts, oh wise ones?