Gas Safe and NICEIC register/Tape recording phone calls folly of paying in advance

[lulilu]

I’m not sure if CAG is the right place for the bit of advice I need. It’s a tale of the folly of paying a tradesman in advance of work being carried out.

 

At the end of my tale this I ask the following questions:

 

1/ How can a person make a proper search of the Gas Safe and NICEIC registers; before I accuse this guy of something I want to be sure of my facts

 

2/ Can my tape recorded phone calls be used in court

 

3/ We agreed a refund price of at least £150 to £200. An NICEIC registered electrician has quoted £552 for the work Lee Temple said he would carry out. Bearing in mind 2 above is it possible to reclaim all of this or just a maximum of £200.

 

4/ When the police spoke to me they more or less said forget about getting my money back. Do people think I should forget about it.

 

This is my tale.

 

In early June I had a leak in the bathroom with water coming down into the kitchen. Plumbers didn’t seem interested in such a small job. After hunting round for a few days for a plumber to fix the leak a neighbour who I know and trust recommended someone who was Gas Safe plumber and a NICEIC registered electrician. I was told, he had recently set up his own Ltd gas and electrical company.

 

This plumber turned out to be someone who was in the same class at school as one of my daughters. His sister was in the same class as my other daughter.

 

The company he said was his is called Complete Solutions NE Ltd. Company registration number 10110170. He told me he was the managing director. His name XXXXXXXXXX.

 

Edit

 

We agreed on the price for the job; £480 to fix the leak, install a new shower, fit the shower room with modern plastic cladding and fit a new light and extractor fan.

 

He said he had resigned from his previous job to set up this new company. In so doing he had incurred large sums and would it be possible to pay in advance. He drove a transit van with professional advertising on it with his Ltd company name including the Gas Safe and NICEIC logs. Because he was recommended by a trusted neighbour and with him being in the same class at school as my daughters I gave him £450.

 

This was the 2nd June. We agreed that everything would be delivered to my house on Saturday the 4th June and installation would commence on Sunday the 5th and would take no more than I day. This was the start of problems. About 7 pm on the 4th I phoned to ask when were the parts to be delivered. He told me he had arranged for deliveries to be made to his house. Unfortunately, not all parts were delivered. Delivery of all parts would definitely be made by Tuesday the 7th and he would definitely commence work on Wednesday the 8th.

 

This is how things continued for three weeks with him spending a few minutes here and there doing the installation work. After a few weeks I became suspicious of his plumbing and electrical qualifications. I asked him for his Gas Safe and NICEIC registration numbers. He mumbled something and then hurriedly left.

 

A day or two later on the 28th June he telephoned to tell me he wouldn’t complete the work he had been paid for but would refund what he owed me. He asked how much I would accept. I asked him the cost of the materials and labour charges. He said he would phone back. He never did. But I later phoned him and we agreed he would refund me at least between £150 and £200. He has never contacted me since. Whenever I phone him he immediately puts the phone down.

 

Halfway through this adventure I took the advice of CAG to always try to record phone calls. I recorded him phoning me to say he wasn’t going to complete the work and that he owed me money. In a second phone call he accepts that he owes me at least £150 to £200. Needless to say I’ve not seen him or my money since.

 

I contacted the registered offices of Complete Solutions NE Ltd. They said XXXXXXXX had never been a director of the company, XXXXXXX had never been an employee of the company and he was completely unknown to them. I told them he had their name and logo on his van and that he was trading under their name. They repeated what they had already told me.

 

According to Companies House XXXXXXXX has never been a director. There was a XXXXXXXX as a director but he resigned a few days after the company was incorporated. XXXXXXXX is a Social Media and social friend of XXXXXXXXX.

 

XXXXXXXX on his Socila Media websitepage still says he is a plumber at a company called Catering Solutions NE Ltd, of Killingworth, Newcastle upon Tyne. I phoned them on the 23rd June to enquire about him. Yes they said he resigned in late May/early June to set up his own Ltd company installing bathrooms and kitchens and he was the managing director. They told me he was employed as plumber. When I informed them I could not find his name on the Gas Safe register they said that’s because he was a really an electrician and that was the work he carried out with them ! I told them I couldn’t find his name on the NICEIC register either. The reply was he was a good bloke who did a good job.

 

Edit

 

XXXXXXXXXXX goes by other names, at the moment it’s XXXXXXX but he also calls himself XXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX. XXXXXXXX is the name of his mother and father.

 

XXXXXXXX told me his address was XXXXXXX, Newcastle upon Tyne. I called there. I was told he did live there but shifted 18 months previously. XXXXXXX has another business called BRM Electricals of 2XXXXXXX, Newcastle upon Tyne. This company offers services, amongst others, as electrical engineering and an electronics engineering. He also has at least one other business renovating and renting various commercial and domestic properties.

 

Edit

 

I’ve asked XXXXXXX a few times to refund me my money he promised. He said he had reported me to the police for harassment and being a psychopath. If I harassed him anymore, he said, he would have me arrested. So I reported myself to the police. They said they had not received any such complaint. The police did call at my house. They told me not to make any more enquiries about XXXXXXX. They told me only that people can sometimes get violent if others check up on them. They said nothing else and they added they were talking only in general terms.

 

The police also told me from what I had described XXXXXXXX had not acted criminally in any way. It was a purely civil matter and had nothing to do with the police.

 

So the advice I require if anyone can give it is:

 

1/ How can a person make a proper search of the Gas Safe and NICEIC registers; before I accuse him of something I want to be sure of my facts

 

2/ Can the tape recorded phone calls be used in court

 

3/ We agreed a refund price of at least £150 to £200. An NICEIC registered electrician has quoted £552 for the work XXXXXXXXX said he would carry out. Bearing in mind 2 above is it possible to reclaim all of this or just a maximum of £200.

 

4/ When the police spoke to me they more or less said forget about getting my money back. Do people think I should forget about it.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Andyorch
All potential liable data removed

[Andyorch]

Please do not post potentially liable information to the forum.

 

Post edited.

 

Andyorch

[king12345]

1. Call 08004085500, they're very helpful

2. Yes, you can use taped telephone calls in court

3. Your verbal agreement has not been fulfilled, so if you take him to court you'll be able to claim for all of your damages

4. Considering that this bloke goes by many names, many companies and many addresses, the police is right: You can wave goodbye to your money. Unless you manage to get a real name and address and by miracle this charlatan has some assets... Very very unlikely.

[Andyorch]

Thread moved to General Consumer Issues

 

Andy

[lulilu]

Thanks very much for your reply.

 

I very much apologise for posting potentially liable information. I'm normally very careful about this but I thought that true information was never liable. On the other hand you have only my word for it and so I can only apologise and assure you it will not happen again.

 

I have re-checked everything, I checked with the phone number you gave what I said was true. I can now say with certainty:

 

 

I entered into an agreement with someone to carry out some electrical and plumbing with a view to installing a new boiler.

 

He told me he was a Gas Safe registered gas engineer and a NICEIC registered electrician. He said he had recently set up a Limited company and he was the managing director. This is the reason I agreed to have him do the work.

 

Because he left his previous employment to start up his new business he said he was short of money. He asked if I could pay in advance. As he had attended the same school as my daughters and indeed had been in the same class as one of them I put caution to one side and paid him in advance. Then, as most would have predicted, work has hardly commenced. This person denies not completing the work. I can prove he is a liar but that is for another day.

 

Because of the following reasons I think this person has broken company law by not providing an address for service of court documents. I’m writing for your opinions,

 

This trader:

 

1 I now know his real name that he tries to conceal

2 He did not form a limited company; he trades under the name of a legitimate Ltd company without their knowledge or permission

3 He trades as a Gas Safe engineer yet his name and that of the company he trades under do not appear on the Gas Safe register

4 He trades as a NICEIC electrician yet his name and that of the company he trades under do not appear on the NICEIC register

5 The company address displayed on his van is false

6 I know where he lives with his wife (partner) and their child(ren). He denies living there even though he spends every night there

7 His wife (partner) claims to live by herself

8 When I told him I wanted his name and address to take him to court, he gave a false name and address

9 It’s my belief the false name and address of both him and the company he trades under are to prevent the bringing of a successful county court

action

10 He also said he was not self-employed but an employee of another company. This other company deny he works for them.

 

Is it true that by falsely using another company’s name and claiming to be on the Gas Safe and NICEIC registers is unfair trading according to Schedule 1(1,2,3,4) of The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 which according to Schedule 1 are always unfair.

 

Additionally, the lies about this person’s name and address are, I believe, behaviour to pervert the course of justice. do you agree.

Are false claims about qualifications and trading as a Ltd company fraud.

 

Although I have this persons name and address I'm wondering about any dangers of taking this guy to court. Any thoughts ?

 

(Once apologies for previously posting potentially liable information)

[king12345]

Take him to court under his real name and address.

He will have to dispute that the "workman" who dealt with you is not him.

The judge won't be impressed.

Also report the wife to the benefit people, she's probably claiming of being a single mother while enjoying your money

[lulilu]

Thank you for this. My problem is that if he receives court papers through the post they will be returned with not known at this address. Then I have to start again. On the other hand I'm nearly there with the evidence to prove he lives where I say he lives.

 

I'm starting to think of the next stage; if I obtain judgement he will claim he has nor resources. So is it possible to obtain a court order to inspect his bank account or just take the money from his account.

 

And yes I've already reported the wife/partner to the council but they don't seem too bothered

[Andyorch]

if I obtain judgement he will claim he has nor resources. So is it possible to obtain a court order to inspect his bank account or just take the money from his account.

 

 

Yes ...

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part71/pd_part71

[lulilu]

Thank you to the people who have responded to my post. The reason I’ve not said thanks before is because I’ve read the comments and decided to investigate this bloke a bit more.

 

As a result, I can now say: the trader has never been a company director, he did not set up a Ltd company. He seems likely to be trading as a sole trader and trades under the name of a legitimate Ltd company without their consent.

 

This man does not publish an address for service of documents and any addresses he does publish are or appear to be false. He advertises that he is Gas Safe registered. This is false. He advertises he is NICEIC registered. This too is false.

 

Ove the last few weeks I have established this person’s address. He regularly uses two names. He consistently refuses to answer correspondence and indeed discuss the matter.

 

I’ve also been reading Patricia Pearl’s (5th edition) book. She says its crucial to properly name the defendant. So, on the claim form, Do I name him as a sole trader or commence proceedings against the Ltd company whose name he uses.

 

OR, do I name the person by the name everyone knows him by or his birth name that he sometimes along with his common name he uses for work. Or do I use one of his names and the other as a joint defendant.

 

He agreed to refund me £200 because he did not do the work he said he would do. He refuses to pay this money. Many people have told me to forget this money. That may be ok for those who can afford it but my annual income is £6375. I can’t afford to give up £200. Additionally, I employed him on the basis he was Gas Safe and NICEIC registered. What bothers me is that he proposed to do work that I now know to be dangerous.

 

To remedy his work or have the work done has cost me £600. Can I claim just £200, or £600 or the difference, £400.

 

Can anyone tell me if this man’s trading activities criminal in any way.

[Andyorch]

You would state the defendant as......

 

Mr Gasman T/A company name

 

Andy

[lulilu]

Once again thank you for your replies.

 

 

I’m sorry to have to keep on about what some may seem as a trivial matter but to me it’s something I cannot work out. I’ve been reading Patricia Pearl’s book and her clarity and simplicity makes it hard for me to proceed. Can anybody help me out.

I have two questions to ask.

Q1

This person seems to use two names, one for business, the same name as his mother and father, and another name for his private life. When he came to do work in my house he used his non-business name. So on any county court claim form do I use his business name or his other name.

Q2

He refuses to advertise a business address to which documents may be sent. All of the addresses that have been supplied by him appear to be false.

I know where he lives but he is not on the electoral register and his partner, and cohabitant, denies all knowledge of him or his whereabouts. I call this address 1

He states explicitly in writing that another address is used as a correspondence address. I call this address 2. However, this address is bogus. The company actually occupying this address denies any knowledge of him or his company. In fact, I have personally visited the company and his company does not exist there.

On some of his advertising he gives a 3rd address as the address of his company. Yet in writing he states that this is merely a business partner’s address.

So, which address do I use.