Fined for dropping a cigarette end on private property

[BlankUser]

Hi

My son was walking through sainsburys car park smoking a roll up

and absently mindedly dropped it on the floor (he knows he's a very naughty boy etc)

 

 

then from no where pops up a woman in uniform armed with a camera

telling him he'd been filmed littering which is an offence and he is to be fined £60 to be paid within 11 days

or it goes up to £80 or court

 

Whilst I agree littering is bad.

..nothing worse then takeaway wrappers blowing all over the place

or having to tip toe through dog dirt in the park but I've never had in issue with cigarette butts..

..but yes..litter is litter & he did a naughty thing

 

 

...my issue is not with that, on reading the government guidelines for these 'litter enforcement officers'

it seems to state that a person should be given the opportunity to pick up their litter.

..but I suppose thats the up to the officer and on reading they get some kinda commission for their fines,

unlikely they'll be letting people off...

 

 

.so my other issue is the car park is private property shared with sainsburys, homebase, argos & McMucks.

..NOT council land..

 

 

.the gov website also states that they are not permitted to issue fines on private property,

even if used by the public without permission off the landowner.

 

I contacted sainsburys to enquire why they have allowed their customers to be

intimidated, humiliated by uniformed people claiming to be council workers

loitering outside their store entrance armed with CCTV filming their customers!! Disgusting:-x!!!

 

However, sainsburys HO don't seem too happy about it either

and they contacted my local store who have assured me that they had no idea of what was happening in their car park

and they are looking into it for me.

 

 

...now I'm wondering if this fine inflicted on my son (a student and forever skint) will stick

 

 

...of course i want to get him out of paying it.

 

 

..I have done the online appeal thing to raise my concerns with the council on his behalf.

 

 

..has anyone had success arguing the toss about fines on private land???

 

Thanks

[king12345]

If the car park is on private land then you just need to point this out to them.

If they want to pursue this in court it won't go down to well with the judge when it's mentioned that they're milking the cows (us) on private land for littering.

Make sure you get something in writing from Sainsbury which confirms that the car park is on private land.

[BlankUser]

thank you king....yes I have emails from Sainsburys HO who actually sound pretty disgusted about it too..and rightfully so given that it's their customers getting harassed and fleeced

[steampowered]

Littering is a criminal offence. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

(2) This section applies to any place in the area of a principal litter authority which is open to the air

 

Although the car park is not owned by the council, it is still a public area open to the air, so it seems to me that the legislation does give the council the right to issue a fine in that car park.

 

£60 does seem a bit harsh for dropping a rollie, but I don't think you can really complain as your son was littering. Someone has to pick it up.

[dx100uk]

are you sure it def was the council?

 

 

thus you could get on the website and complain

if it wasn't you wouldn't be able too?

 

 

bit stupid of the coubcil to make such a simple error on jurisdiction of their litter patrol...

 

 

dx

[BlankUser]

cheers for the replys...according to the gov website they can't fine people on private land with out permission

 

Issuing FPNs on private land

You must have permission from the landowner or occupier before you enter private land to issue FPNs.

 

This applies to privately owned land which the public can access.

 

The only exception is for waste collection authorities investigating fly-tipping. They can enter private land without permission.

(I can't seem to post the direct link!?!)

 

dx yeh I'm sure, I did the appeal via the council form on their website today, tho it is a private company (kingdom ltd, I gather) who do it on behalf of the council....much of this feels like scaring people into paying ott fines much like the parking fines

[king12345]

Littering is a criminal offence. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

(2) This section applies to any place in the area of a principal litter authority which is open to the air

 

Although the car park is not owned by the council, it is still a public area open to the air, so it seems to me that the legislation does give the council the right to issue a fine in that car park.

 

£60 does seem a bit harsh for dropping a rollie, but I don't think you can really complain as your son was littering. Someone has to pick it up.

 

It doesn't apply, otherwise I would be fined for throwing a cigarette butt in my front garden, open to anyone who wishes to come in (no gates or fence) and open to the air.

Also the council would not be responsible for cleaning a private piece of land, so no loss to them.

The ceo was just trying to maximase his commissions

[BlankUser]

I think it's very poor they have started to loiter outside of supermarkets.

 

 

.often I just chuck my till receipt on top of my shopping trolly which sometimes gets swept away with the wind when i exit the store..

 

 

..this I assume would be an offence,

it seems to me that these 'companies' working on behalf of local councils have simply found a good source of revenue.

 

 

..personally the way I'm feeling is that the uniformed lady is the one that has committed the offence here,

loitering with intent to extort money, harassment...erm..

 

 

..I'm sure I can think of some other things.

 

 

..oh and claiming authority on land that is not in there jurisdiction

 

 

...can I fine them??...haha

[MaxxPower]

So the regulations aren't that they cannot issue a FPN on private land, only that they require permission of the land owner. Perhaps they have this? From the sounds of it Sainsburys aren't the land owner, they are merely tenants so they may not necessarily know that the land owner/landlord has given permission for people littering to be fined on their land.

 

£60 may seem harsh but littering, especially people just throwing cigarette butts on the ground, is a major problem and the only way to drill the message into people to stop doing it is with harsh penalties.

[Guest roaringmouse]

Whatever the outcome, I am sure he won't do it again!

 

You need to establish who the landowner is. Do not assume, find out. Then you need to establish in writing if they gave the LA permission to patrol their private property. If they did he is bang to rights. If they did not, he has a legitimate defense.

 

All this is on the assumption that the 'fine' was issued by an official from the LA and not some wannabe car clamping muppet.

[steampowered]

The legislation I linked to before says 'This section applies to any place in the area of a principal litter authority which is open to the air ... This section does not apply to a place which is “open to the air” for the purposes of this Part ... if the public does not have access to it, with or without payment.'

 

The gov.uk guidance says 'It’s an offence to drop litter on land that’s accessible to the public, even if it’s private'.

 

My reading of all this is that the council can fine you for littering in an open area that is open to the public. So it looks to me like the council are allowed to fine you for littering in a privately-owned car park which is open to the public. The council couldn't fine you for littering in your garden because that is not a public place. I could be wrong though.

 

Blankuser, please do let us know how you get on with appealing to the council. It will be interesting to hear what they say, and helpful for people who face the same problem in future.

[BlankUser]

Hi thanks for your comments, I will certainly let you know how it goes, I'm not hopeful to be honest but we'll see. The issue I have is it could be argued that there's a lack of bins..but as it's a supermarket carpark then it's not the councils responsibility to make sure bins are in place so how can they issue fines in all fairness, also they should give people the opportunity to correct their error knowing that the humiliation of being stopped in public is lesson enough

 

I get the impression, from reading online that smokers are targeted, I'd even go as far as saying smokers are 'stalked' by these people which is wrong. If I spot one in a supermarket car park again I will go into the store and complain the the manager that their customers are being harassed...which then I assume/hope will lead to the jobsworth being asked to move on (which I might film on my phone...not to post online just to dish out the same treatment . )

 

As for who owns the land (if it isn't sainsburys) I'm finding hard to find out,,,,but I do feel there's a moral issue here...whilst litter is bad and I can't justify that at all, stalking and fining without warning is just not on in my opinion

[king12345]

The legislation I linked to before says 'This section applies to any place in the area of a principal litter authority which is open to the air ... This section does not apply to a place which is “open to the air” for the purposes of this Part ... if the public does not have access to it, with or without payment.'

 

The gov.uk guidance says 'It’s an offence to drop litter on land that’s accessible to the public, even if it’s private'.

 

My reading of all this is that the council can fine you for littering in an open area that is open to the public. So it looks to me like the council are allowed to fine you for littering in a privately-owned car park which is open to the public. The council couldn't fine you for littering in your garden because that is not a public place. I could be wrong though.

 

Blankuser, please do let us know how you get on with appealing to the council. It will be interesting to hear what they say, and helpful for people who face the same problem in future.

 

My garden is open to the public.

There's no fence or gates, anyone can come in as they wish, but it's still private land.

I shall be careful next time I cut some wood in the front garden and leave bits and pieces lying around

No, sorry.

LA cannot issue pcn on private land unless authorised by the land owner (see post #6).

After all, as said, they do not clean the private area so no loss to them.

[MaxxPower]

Hi thanks for your comments, I will certainly let you know how it goes, I'm not hopeful to be honest but we'll see. The issue I have is it could be argued that there's a lack of bins..but as it's a supermarket carpark then it's not the councils responsibility to make sure bins are in place so how can they issue fines in all fairness, also they should give people the opportunity to correct their error knowing that the humiliation of being stopped in public is lesson enough

 

I get the impression, from reading online that smokers are targeted, I'd even go as far as saying smokers are 'stalked' by these people which is wrong. If I spot one in a supermarket car park again I will go into the store and complain the the manager that their customers are being harassed...which then I assume/hope will lead to the jobsworth being asked to move on (which I might film on my phone...not to post online just to dish out the same treatment . )

 

As for who owns the land (if it isn't sainsburys) I'm finding hard to find out,,,,but I do feel there's a moral issue here...whilst litter is bad and I can't justify that at all, stalking and fining without warning is just not on in my opinion

I don't see how "There's a lack of bins" can be an argument at all. If there's nowhere to dispose of a cigarette butt, don't smoke there. A cigarette butt should never be thrown into a normal bin anyway as it poses a fire risk.

 

And I don't really see how you can say "fining without warning". It's the law, the fact that the law exists is the warning.

[Surfer01]

I don't see how "There's a lack of bins" can be an argument at all. If there's nowhere to dispose of a cigarette butt, don't smoke there.

 

And I don't really see how you can say "fining without warning". It's the law, the fact that the law exists is the warning.

 

Can you quote the law regarding littering on private property as that is what CAG is all about?

[BlankUser]

I don't see how "There's a lack of bins" can be an argument at all. If there's nowhere to dispose of a cigarette butt, don't smoke there. A cigarette butt should never be thrown into a normal bin anyway as it poses a fire risk.

 

And I don't really see how you can say "fining without warning". It's the law, the fact that the law exists is the warning.

 

If thats the case then there should be 'no smoking' signs on display,

smokers are demonised from all angles (and no, I am not a smoker, I did used to be).

 

 

..the act of smoking in public is not yet illegal,,,although it's not just smoking,

I found a article online where someone in wales got hit with the fine for some lettuce falling from her McD's wrap

(no idea of the outcome)

 

 

also a cleaner of a pub who, after discovering the pub had been broken into

smoked a cigarette in the pub car park whilst waiting for the police to arrive

only to have a litter enforcement person jump out on her when she discarded her cigarette

(again this was on private property/land and she had the support of the landlord...again outcome unknown) .

 

 

..if you're fine with the idea of people going around videoing joe public

in the hope to extort money out of them for losing their grip of a till receipt,

dropping a bus ticket..whatever, then thats your choice,

 

 

however I'm personally pretty uncomfortable with it.

..does the money go into council funds?.

 

 

..no...it's a private firm called Kingdom Ltd who have done a deal with the council

and pay them a percent, also I read that these patrol wardens are on commission

[BlankUser]

And my point re lack of bins was to say that the council will not take responsibility for providing bins on private land so how can they issue fines on private land?

[MaxxPower]

Can you quote the law regarding littering on private property as that is what CAG is all about?

 

The one that king linked to earlier,

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87

It makes no provision/exception for private land, merely that the land is accessible by the public. The only exception it makes is if the land is not accessible by the public.

 

 

If thats the case then there should be 'no smoking' signs on display,

By that logic we should have "No murdering" signs on display everywhere and all houses should have a "No breaking and entering" sign on them.

[BlankUser]

 

 

 

By that logic we should have "No murdering" signs on display everywhere and all houses should have a "No breaking and entering" sign on them.

Murder is illegal and the legality of murder is common knowledge....however, smoking tobacco is NOT illegal...you dafty

[MaxxPower]

Murder is illegal and the legality of murder is common knowledge....however, smoking tobacco is NOT illegal...you dafty

 

No, but littering is illegal, that's the point. Dropping a cigarette butt on the ground = littering, that's why the fine was for littering, not smoking.

[Surfer01]

No, but littering is illegal, that's the point. Dropping a cigarette butt on the ground = littering, that's why the fine was for littering, not smoking.

That link clearly indicates that it is not an offence to drop a cigarette butt on the ground in a supermarket car park unless the woner has emphatically stated no littering. I am not condoning littering, but the law needs to be applied correctly.

[MaxxPower]

That link clearly indicates that it is not an offence to drop a cigarette butt on the ground in a supermarket car park unless the woner has emphatically stated no littering. I am not condoning littering, but the law needs to be applied correctly.

 

Which section are you referring to specifically? I can't see anything that would state it isn't an offence to drop a cigarette butt on the ground in a supermarket car park unless the owner has stated no littering on signage.

[BlankUser]

Any idea of how the law stands on stalking and covert filming??? does that not fall foul of human rights/civil liberties?

[steampowered]

My garden is open to the public

...

LA cannot issue pcn on private land unless authorised by the land owner (see post #6).

After all, as said, they do not clean the private area so no loss to them.

I don't think your garden could reasonably be said to be 'open to the public'.

 

The same concept has been used for a number of years in the smoking ban legislation. The smoking ban affects private premises like pubs, and can be enforced by local authorities issuing fines, and smoking remains banned even if the landlord wants to allow it.

 

The Health Act 2006 applies the ban as follows: 'Premises are smoke-free if they are open to the public' ... 'Premises are “open to the public” if the public or a section of the public has access to them, whether by invitation or not, and whether on payment or not'. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/28/section/2. There are some grey areas as to what exactly constitutes 'premises open to the public' but it is usually obvious.

 

And my point re lack of bins was to say that the council will not take responsibility for providing bins on private land so how can they issue fines on private land?

I fully appreciate what you are saying and I agree the fine sounds a bit excessive for what your son did. I am just explaining what I think the legislation says after reading it - have a look at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87, the first three paragraphs, as these are what your son would have been cited for.

 

I suppose the justification for passing this legislation would have been that you should take litter home with you rather than dropping it on the floor for someone else to pick up (or to blow into a river or garden).

 

Any idea of how the law stands on stalking and covert filming??? does that not fall foul of human rights/civil liberties?

Covert filming is legal, but there are a number of different laws which would prevent it from being used in an excessive way. For example -

- there are laws against harassment which would stop surveillance that crosses the line from annoyance into harassment

- the Human Rights Act places a duty on public authorities to avoid interfering people's private lines where necessary to do this (this only applies to public authorities like the council and not to individuals)

- where the surveillance concerns an identifiable individual, the recording will be 'personal data' subject to the Data Protection Act. There is an exemption from the DPA where the recording is necessary for functions of a public nature (I imagine litter control would fall into that box).

[king12345]

The Health Act 2006 applies the ban as follows: 'Premises are smoke-free if they are open to the public' ... 'Premises are “open to the public” if the public or a section of the public has access to them, whether by invitation or not, and whether on payment or not'

 

Therefore my front garden is open to the public and littering there constitutes an offence.

Straight forward but wrong.

LA cannot issue pcn on private land without landlord permission.

The truth is that the bloodsuckers are from Kingdom Uk, not LA.