Water Rates

[tezza1234]

I have no idea where to put this post so please feel free to move admin if required

 

Hello Caggers, i need your advice again, now this is potentially a little messy so i will try to keep it as simple as possible.

 

Basically me and my family moved in to our new build social housing property (flat) 5 years ago, we would pay rent and service charges, initially everyone in the block (12 flats) thought that the water rates were included in the rent or services charges so we all signed up for the rest, gas, electric, telephone etc... and didnt worry about the water, fast forward 2 years from there (so now in 2012) and the block heard rumours that the council wanted each flat to start paying water rates and were going to fit water meters for each flat, this never happened and we heard no more.

 

Now from 2012 onward we used to get the odd letter from thames water but it was not addressed to us, it was addressed to a single female (miss xxx) and we are a married couple, we have never heard of this named person before so it either went in the bin or sometimes marked 'not at this address, return to sender' and put back in the post.

 

We did sometimes get a knock at the door (which i simply do not answer if i don't know who it is or not expecting anyone) from baliff looking people.

 

Fast forward again to around March time this year (2015) and the door went again, it was early and i was half asleep so i answered it, the man asked for this Miss xxx, i said look, i have no idea who this person is, we have lived here since the flats were built in 2010 and have never known of this person. The man said ok, no problem, what is your name, So i foolishly told him my name, he then went and that was that.

 

Then some 2 weeks after this visit i get a letter from Thames Water addressed in my name welcoming me as a new customer, I thought at the time ok, so i assume we do have to start paying for water from now on and thats fine, whatever.

 

Then 2 weeks later again i get another letter from thames water stating that i owe £300 odd quid dating back to 2013 (i only got a new customer welcome letter 2 weeks ago lol) so now i am rather confused. and they are sending the usual pay us or else letters, as of today, the balance is around £380.

 

I guess my questions are, what do i do, it would seem this debt was Miss xxx and possibly even from a previous address for all i know, can thames water really send me a welcome letter then 2 weeks later ask for backdated payment by 2 years. I am really quite confused. Apart from the fact i simply do not have the £380 i have 2 children under 6 and am worried they will just shut the supply off

 

Help.

[Andyorch]

Just ring them up and tell them Miss xxxxxx has never resided at this property...that you have from (5 years ago) and please remove the debt from your account......then put it in writing confirming same.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Andyorch]

Thread moved to the correct forum.

[tezza1234]

Just ring them up and tell them Miss xxxxxx has never resided at this property...that you have from (5 years ago) and please remove the debt from your account......then put it in writing confirming same.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Is it really as easy as that, like they are just going to accept it. I am happy to put that in writing but not a massive talker on phone.

[Andyorch]

Its as easy as you wish to make it..they are obviously palming another persons debt off onto your account...if you don't tackle them they will assume its correct.Tell them to check their tracing systems as its obviously a case of miss identity.

 

As its a new build its impossible.

[kjun]

Not sure it seems that simple from the post as OP suggests they have been in occupation for the billing period so wrong name on previous bills is not relevant now TW have the correct occupant.

 

 

If they were not in occupation of the property in question during that period then they are certainly not liable for the charges but if they were then TW are correct in billing as per the Water Industry Act.

[Andyorch]

Not sure it seems that simple from the post as OP suggests they have been in occupation for the billing period so wrong name on previous bills is not relevant now TW have the correct occupant.

 

 

If they were not in occupation of the property in question during that period then they are certainly not liable for the charges but if they were then TW are correct in billing as per the Water Industry Act.

 

Its a new build...so no previous occupants.

[tobyjugg2]

The issue is whether the flats are separately water 'tax' charged or if it is in with the 'service' charges isn't it?

 

ie whether it is an old property water 'tax' debt chasing the wrong person, or a correct (current address) water 'tax' bill which has never been paid.

 

Please correct me if I misunderstand.

[Andyorch]

Possibly TJ...lets see what the poster responds with.

 

Andy

[ericsbrother]

as the council havent put it in writing that there are separate accounts then there is no individaul liabilty as far as I can see, it is a matter between the landlord and the water company until someone from the council says otherwise in writing to one and all.

Probably have to get your ward councillors involved.

I wouldnt be paying any back bills and would be asking for proof of the transfer of liability from both the water co and the council as it doesnt add up at all. All new properties have to have a water meter so you should also ask where yours is.

[kjun]

The Water Industry Act is quite clear in that the occupier of a property is liable for the water service charges.

 

 

Any separate agreement in where water rates are included in rent are between the tenant and landlord and the water company is not party to that agreement.

 

 

In the event they remain unpaid the water company will take action against the occupant pursuant to the legislation and it would be up to the tenant to take their own action against the landlord for refund of any payments they have made in relation to water charges or bring them into any proceedings as per CPR part 20.

 

 

I can see the property was a new build and no previous occupants which would then suggest the OP has been in occupation for the billing period concerned but perhaps they can confirm this.

[ericsbrother]

so where is the water meter? It has been a requirement since 1990 that new builds have water meters so if there is only 1 for the block then the LL(council) is responsible for this debacle and no-one else. If you have your own meter have you been given readings for it at any time? Are there readings supplied on the paperwork you have received lately? you may have to bother TW for the details of meter as they should know.

[kjun]

The OP has stated that the amount outstanding is £380 back to 2013 so this would not suggest only 1 meter as I am sure you can imagine a block of 12 flats would use considerably more than this amount if consumption was going through a single meter.

 

 

Sub meters perhaps have been fitted for each property but OP can confirm the basis of charge from their bill and as you suggest then ask where the meter is.

 

 

Nonetheless as I stated above the landlord of a property cannot be held liable for water charges as they are not the occupier (unless they live in the premises) and the legislation is very specific with regards to this point meaning any proceedings against a non occupying landlord for non payment will fail because of this.

 

 

Bills will therefore be correctly sent to the tenant regardless of any third party agreement if one is in place.

[tezza1234]

So, just an update to this, it is still on-going, i have tried to call TW numerous times, at least 10, since my origonal post, and every time i have been on hold for more than 1 hour before giving up without actually getting to speak to anyone, i have looged the days/times called, and video proof from my phone of being on call for over an hour each time etc.... what a joke that i have spent more than 10 hours listening to music and not actually getting to speak to anyone.

 

So, the property was built in 2010 and i / my family were the first ever tennants, there is no individual water meter for each property, if there is a central one, i do not know where it is, I can't actually see any meter readings on any correspondance.

 

I am not paying this, as it is just bullcrap, baliff turns up asking for someone else, i say no, not here, my name is so and so (being honest, silly me) then a couple weeks later i get a welcome new customer letter, than a backdated bill by some 2 years, they are obviously trying to palm this off, but what am i supposed to do, sit on hold for 2-3-4 hours until they might decide to answer.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

So have you paid any water rates for the 5 years you have been there?

Does your tenancy agreement specifically state that water is included with rent?

 

If no, and no, then i would suspect they are correct to chase you, and i know that Thames water WILL pursue through the courts if no payment is made. And its not a bluff, I can assure you. The name issue is no defense. You admitted you have lived there since 2010, various databases will confirm that, and therefore, you would likely lose in court if you tried to defend. I would say that your best bet would be to set up a monthly arrangement to stop it spiraling.

 

http:// thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xbcr/corp/how-to-get-help-if-you-cant-pay-your-bill.pdf (there is a space between // and t just in case the forum doesn't allow the link)

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

For each flat that will be separately occupied if it requires its own water account and can be sold off as a self contained flat it will need its own water meter and service pipe. This is achieved by either laying separate service pipes from the flats/apartments to the highway boundary or (if there are 5 or more flats) there's an option to have one large diameter connection onto our main which you split internally to each flat

 

That's taken from https://www.stwater.co.uk/im-building-a-block-of-flats. I would suggest checking outside the block, or following the water pipe in and checking cupboards etc in the communal area and finally in the cupboards/service areas within your flat. There will be a meter there somewhere.

[tezza1234]

For each flat that will be separately occupied if it requires its own water account and can be sold off as a self contained flat it will need its own water meter and service pipe. This is achieved by either laying separate service pipes from the flats/apartments to the highway boundary or (if there are 5 or more flats) there's an option to have one large diameter connection onto our main which you split internally to each flat

 

That's taken from https://www.stwater.co.uk/im-building-a-block-of-flats. I would suggest checking outside the block, or following the water pipe in and checking cupboards etc in the communal area and finally in the cupboards/service areas within your flat. There will be a meter there somewhere.

 

I am in the process of seeking exact clarification re. water charges, there are 12 flats in the block and none of us, that i am aware, have individual water meters, i would assume, if there is a main one, it will be under a cover outside in the street, and of course the name matters, where did they get this totally different person from, the water debt COULD even be from a different address for all i know, but when you spend 1 hour 10 minutes on hold and not getting to speak to anyone, what are you supposed to do. Maybe i should start billing them for the 10+ hours i have been trying to get hold of them.