Harrow Council - PCN's Sent to Old Address

[rocky_sharma]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have just came to know about two PCN notices sent to my old address.

Those notices have been sent in April when the contravention occurred

however I changed the address in July end last year and also have my V5C with current address since then.

 

The two PCN notices I came to know about just yesterday are also increased by 50% of the initial charge and also notified of registering this as a debt at the country court if not paid within 14 days which are already over.

 

Is there a way that I can negotiate this and pay less as I have been living at at new address since one year and those notices have been sent to my old address just four months ago.

 

I also hold the license with new address which I applied for as soon as I changed the address.

 

Looking forward to helpful responses.

 

Many Thanks.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

Who are the PCNs from please? And what does the letter say about county court? I'm asking because it's important to know if this is a private parking company or a local council.

 

HB

[rocky_sharma]

Those PCN Notices are from Harrow Council and it says that failure to pay full outstanding balance within 14 days of the service of this notice will result in the council registering the outstanding balance as a debt at the county court. A warrant may then be issued to bailiffs to recover payment. You will also become liable for the additional fees of the bailiff.

[honeybee13]

Thank you for that. I've moved you to the local authority parking forum and left you a link to follow from the old forum. The guys should be along later with advice for you.

 

HB

[Michael Browne]

Are what you've received Charge Certificates? If so, wait for the Order for Recovery and send a witness statement to TEC that you did not receive the Notice to Owner. The OfR will have details on how to do that.

 

This will set the PCN's back to the NtO stage, at which point you can either make formal representations or pay the normal full penalty

[rocky_sharma]

yes first letter was penalty charge notice and then charge certificate. Should I update my address somewhere before receiving order of recovery? also is this order of recovery from county court? and will it make this case more complicated?

 

What is witness statement and I am the owner of the vehicle and it's my name on both penalty charge notice and certificate and I agree of the contravention.

 

Please explain briefly so that I can proceed in right direction.

 

Many Thanks,

[Jamberson]

As regards the address issue, you might want to phone the council and ask them where they obtained the one they've been writing to. Normally they get the keeper's address from DVLA and it would be good to know if that's where they got it from - if they did, you'll need to contact DVLA and tell them they have your wrong address.

 

As for the PCN, you don't need to change the address for the sake of sorting it out because the Order for Recovery will always go to the same address as they have used thus far - but you'll need to get hold of the Order for Recovery when it arrives at the old place. It should tell you on the Charge Certificate, but I think it's 21 days between the two. Chase it up and get hold of it, and you can file your witness statement.

 

A Witness Statement is a form you fill in, and it's a formal claim by yourself as to the reasons why the PCN should be re-issued. It's simple to do, and perfectly correct, so nothing to worry about. When you fill it in, spell out clearly about the house move, the dates, the new address etc and it should go through OK. (Post here beforehand if you need any advice on completing it.) Assuming it does, you'll get a new Notice to Owner at your correct address and can deal with it then.

[rocky_sharma]

I have been to my old address again today to collect if I've missed anything but didn't find any order of recovery letter.

 

On the charge certificate, which was issued on 17th June 2015, all it says is if I failed to pay the full outstanding balance within 14 days of the service of this notice will result in the council registering the outstanding balance as a debt at the county court.

 

A warrant may then be issued to bailiffs to recover payment.

You will also become liable for the additional fees of the bailiff.

(here I would like to mention that 14 day are already over and its been more than three months).

 

Is it possible to ask council if the order of recovery has already been issued or in place when I phone them to find out how they obtained the address to send notice for contravention?

[Jamberson]

It is likely that the warrant has now been issued, and that the bailiffs don't know your correct address, but are looking.

 

Don't panic. Call the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) (Google it for the phone number) and ask if a bailiff warrant has been issued. If it has, and it probably has, ask them for forms to file an OUT OF TIME witness statement. Make sure you get the Out Of Time forms - TE7 and TE9.

 

TE9 is the witness statement we were talking about above, where you explain the issue of the address change, and that you didn't get correspondence etc. TE7 is the additional form, where you explain why you didn't complete the TE9 within the timescales (ie, because you weren't aware of it).

 

Please post back when you have spoken to TEC and got the forms. This can be sorted out, as you have a valid case.

[rocky_sharma]

I have made a call to Traffic Enforcement Center today and found that nothing has been registered in their system yet. I've also sent an email to council asking where did they obtain the address from to send PCN notice but they haven't came back to me yet.

 

Thanks Jamberson for your help so far it was really helpful. For the moment I guess I just need to wait for the order of recovery?

 

I will keep posting.......

Edited August 17, 2015 by rocky_sharma

[Jamberson]

OK - good news if the bailiffs are not yet involved.

 

You need to know whether an Order for Recovery has been issued to you. It should have been by now, but since you don't have one, it's possible the system has stalled for some reason. I know email is easier, but it would be much better to phone the council and ask, since you might have a long wait for a reply by email and that could cause problems.

 

If the Order for Recovery has not yet been issued (you may want to ask why?) then it's just a case of waiting for it.

 

If it has been issued, then you need to know when, as there is a time limit between that and the process timing out. Again, if you're on the phone to the council and they say it's been issued, ask them how long you have to file a Witness Statement. I think it's 21 days from the date of the Order for Recovery. If you're in time, get hold of a TE9 form from TEC.

 

If you're out of time, you'll need both the TE7 and the TE9.

[rocky_sharma]

I called the council today and found that they no longer deal with penalty charge notices over the phone it's all online and by email.

 

Online I can check the images of the contravention by using notice no. and vehicle registration number which I already have done.

To find out if order of recovery has been issued I have to email them which is also done today.

 

I have also asked the lady from harrow council that where do they obtain address for PCN notices and she said DVLA

I will call DVLA to find out if they have my correct address or not.

 

She also said that order of recovery has probably been issued but it usually takes longer than 21 days and if I want to file witness statement than I need to wait for it to arrive in the post.

[Ethel Street]

Just to check rocky, you have the V5C for the vehicle the PCN hs been issued for and in section 5 Registered Keeper it definitely shows your current address and not the one the council sent the PCN to?

 

When was the V5C issued? They don't show it in any of the boxes but if you look at the bottom of the second page there's a section called "Official use only" which has in it 'Doc. Ref. No'. This shows the V5C number - eg 1234 567 8900 - followed by a date, eg 18 08 15. What date does it show there?

[rocky_sharma]

I have checked my V5C twice and it does show my current address and I have also checked the section you mentioned (bottom of second page) and the date is also from last year although I don't remember the exact date but will definitely check when I go back to home in the evening and post it here.

[rocky_sharma]

I have just got an email from council with following sentence mentioned in it.

 

"The Council is yet to issue warrant for two aforementioned PCN, which will be the next line action."

[Ethel Street]

I have checked my V5C twice and it does show my current address and I have also checked the section you mentioned (bottom of second page) and the date is also from last year although I don't remember the exact date but will definitely check when I go back to home in the evening and post it here.

 

Good, so if the date of alleged contravention on the PCN is April 2015 and V5C has a 2014 issue date then include a copy of V5C with your witness statement pointing out the issue date. That should be compelling evidence that you had correct address registered with DVLA but council used wrong address.

[rocky_sharma]

Jamberson or Ethel Street any advice on what should be done next?

[Jamberson]

No offence, Ethel Street, but what you've said is confusing the issue. When the witness statement is filed, the mater of the V5C, what it says, and when DVLA were advised, is all irrelevant. What matters is where the Council sent the statutory notices, not the whys and wherefores of how it came to be incorrect, or whose fault that is. It is simply a matter of demonstrating that the notices did not go to the appelant's home, which is the breach of process that matters.

 

Rocky - the council's statement about the warrant isn't much help. We already knew that there is not a warrant because you'd checked with TEC. Was this sent in response to your question as to whether an Order for Recovery has been issued? If so, you need to go back to them and ask again. Without knowing if or when an Order for Recovery was issued, you won't be able to determine whether to file an In Time Witness Statement or an Out of Time one. Maybe just ask - please can you confirm the date that the Order for Recovery was issued - and see what they say.

 

Incidentally, I find it amazing that they won't discuss this over the phone. That's totally unhelpful - a complaint might be in order about that, but that's a separate issue.

[rocky_sharma]

Yes Jamberson I asked council if the order of recovery issued or not and if yes then how much time I have to file Witness Statement and their response was only one single line statement which I have provided in previous post above.

 

That was really not helpful but I will go back to them right now and ask again to get proper answer.

But I would also like to ask you in advance what if they keep sending me email without clearly answering my question as I now feel like clock is really ticking after their first email.

[Jamberson]

There's no reason why the should keep stalling you, but if they do, I guess you'll have to file both an in time and an out of time witness statement, and one of them will be accepted. Apart from being inconvenient, it shouldn't really matter. Hopefully this time, they'll just tell you, and you'll know what stage you are at in the process. Good that they respond to emails so quickly.

[rocky_sharma]

Council has came back to me with following response.

 

 

Please be advised that the order for recovery for the PCNs have not been issued yet.

 

Your options at this stage are

 

Wait for our response and for the order of recover to be posted to you and then you can file a witness statement.

 

Pay the notice, the current outstanding balance on both notices is £195.00.[

[Jamberson]

I wonder what the problem is, then. They should have issued them by now. It's a pain because you can't go forward with this until they issue it, and of course when they do, you won't know unless you check the old address. I think that's all you can do - wait, and keep an eye on the situation. Once they issue it, you can take action.

 

By the way, I notice their reply says "PCNs", implying there is more than one of them.

[rocky_sharma]

Yes there are two PCNs as I mentioned in one of the early posts.

 

For the moment I will have to keep visiting the old address to collect my posts which will be the next action however as soon as I receive one I will start posting here again to get more help on filling witness statement and other stuff.

[Jamberson]

Yeah, good plan.

 

There is one other thing you might want to try - you could write a letter to the council explaining everything, and asking them if they will issue you with an NTO against each PCN to save everyone the hassle of the Witness Statement process. There's a chance they will agree to that and then send you the NTOs - which puts you back in the process to either pay or appeal them. It does sometimes happen that they will do this.

[rocky_sharma]

I will definitely send them letter explaining everything also would like to know how about email will that not suffice? or is not a proper way of doing? Just asking as email will be faster.

Edited August 20, 2015 by rocky_sharma