Stopped for Fare Evasion - ** RESOLVED **

[maninahat]

Good evening, thank you for taking the time to read this. Any advice would be very gratefully received!

 

In what is probably a familiar story for the regulars on this forum, I have come seeking advice having been stopped without a train ticket.

I was interviewed under caution and having spent the day reading the internet in a panic am now expecting a summons in the next few weeks.

 

I hope I've understood the usual process, but would be grateful for confirmation.

 

To provide a little detail,

I had been to the dentist in the next town over and dropped by car, but needed to get back to the office.

A train arrived whilst i was queueing to buy a ticket so I got on.

This is not uncommon in this area where buying a ticket on the train is often required, and trains are infrequent by London standards.

 

I enquired of a conveniently placed member of transport police if this train was going the right way and sat opposite another

(you'd think that might have nudged me out of my stupor) I didn't attempt to find the guard.

Jumped off train 4 mins later and with no further thought headed towards my office.

At which point I was promptly stopped & read my rights by another chap by the exit (no barriers here).

 

Assuming I was about to be fined on the spot, I was polite and accepted that I had no ticket etc.

I didn't attempt to run, talk my way out of it, or offer to buy a ticket.

Instead he interviewed me under caution (PACE I assume) and sent me on my way.

 

I now see that my existing understanding of how ticketing processes work in practice, is somewhat different from the legal situation.

Today i was (very) stupid rather than malicious, but that is no defence and if this reaches court I would inevitably have to plead guilty.

 

I am saving for a house, so even a 1000 pound fine would not be a complete disaster as I could pay it from savings.

As ever, the criminal record is the big problem for future employment & mortgage.

 

Would you suggest that i

 

1 - do nothing now except await the inevitable letter

 

2 - but then be ready to immediately send a grovelling letter and offer to settle out of court should I receive a summons

 

Many thanks in advance for any advice (sympathy neither required nor expected),

will happily provide any other useful details if required. Cost of journey was practically nothing

& I have no previous record or penalty fares, speeding tickets etc.

[BazzaS]

Good evening, thank you for taking the time to read this. Any advice would be very gratefully received!

 

In what is probably a familiar story for the regulars on this forum, I have come seeking advice having been stopped without a train ticket. I was interviewed under caution and having spent the day reading the internet in a panic am now expecting a summons in the next few weeks.

 

I hope I've understood the usual process, but would be grateful for confirmation.

 

To provide a little detail, I had been to the dentist in the next town over and dropped by car, but needed to get back to the office. A train arrived whilst i was queueing to buy a ticket so I got on. This is not uncommon in this area where buying a ticket on the train is often required, and trains are infrequent by London standards.

 

I enquired of a conveniently placed member of transport police if this train was going the right way and sat opposite another (you'd think that might have nudged me out of my stupor) I didn't attempt to find the guard. Jumped off train 4 mins later and with no further thought headed towards my office. At which point I was promptly stopped & read my rights by another chap by the exit (no barriers here).

 

Assuming I was about to be fined on the spot, I was polite and accepted that I had no ticket etc. I didn't attempt to run, talk my way out of it, or offer to buy a ticket. Instead he interviewed me under caution (PACE I assume) and sent me on my way.

 

I now see that my existing understanding of how ticketing processes work in practice, is somewhat different from the legal situation. Today i was (very) stupid rather than malicious, but that is no defence and if this reaches court I would inevitably have to plead guilty.

 

I am saving for a house, so even a 1000 pound fine would not be a complete disaster as I could pay it from savings. As ever, the criminal record is the big problem for future employment & mortgage.

 

Would you suggest that i

1 - do nothing now except await the inevitable letter

2 - but then be ready to immediately send a grovelling letter and offer to settle out of court should I receive a summons

 

Many thanks in advance for any advice (sympathy neither required nor expected), will happily provide any other useful details if required. Cost of journey was practically nothing & I have no previous record or penalty fares, speeding tickets etc.

 

Wait for the letter.

Post here when you get the letter, saying what they are considering proceeding under (if they state such).

 

I wouldn't advise trying to tell them " buying a ticket on the train is often required, and trains are infrequent by London standards. " : that might make them reply "we'll prosecute, as it is the travellers responsibility to buy a ticket before travel"

 

I seem to recall one of the industry regulars quoting a judge who had heard similar as part of a "defence", who told the accused "I have to buy my ticket, and sometimes I have to queue to do so!"

 

It might be better (for others, if they did try to buy a ticket on the train!), to phrase it as "I erroneously thought I could buy a ticket on the train" - but as you didn't try to buy a ticket on the train, or at your destination ... You might best leave that tack well alone!

 

Did you get asked (under caution) "If I had not stopped you, would you have paid your fare" (or equivalent!), and if so : what was your reply?

[dx100uk]

nope you've pretty much got it all sorted and understood.

 

 

cant see this being a problem .

 

 

settlement should happen.

 

 

dx

[BazzaS]

nope you've pretty much got it all sorted and understood.

 

 

cant see this being a problem .

 

 

settlement should happen.

 

 

dx

 

Depends, dx.

 

Since they were stopped leaving the station without having paid their fare, they may have given in interview answers that would lead prosecution to be the most likely outcome.

It really does depend both what the OP was asked in their IUC, and their reply.

[maninahat]

I wouldn't advise trying to tell them " buying a ticket on the train is often required, and trains are infrequent by London standards. " : that might make them reply "we'll prosecute, as it is the travellers responsibility to buy a ticket before travel"

 

Absolutely, you're entirely correct. Is no excuse, just the reason for my (flawed) actions. My home station has no barriers, no machines and an office that closes often. So the idea of getting on a train with no ticket is not uncommon. Although I wouldn't say as much in a letter

[BazzaS]

Absolutely, you're entirely correct. Is no excuse, just the reason for my (flawed) actions. My home station has no barriers, no machines and an office that closes often. So the idea of getting on a train with no ticket is not uncommon. Although I wouldn't say as much in a letter

 

Absolutely (not to use in a letter, unless you did try to buy a ticket on the train, and even then "use with caution"!)

 

The thing is, there is inconsistency ; some services it has become almost "accepted practice to buy tickets on the train", and then people get confused when served with penalty fares, and a proportion may then get argumentative, and a proportion may then get reported and get a Bylaw conviction (for a strict liability offence)

 

I don't know the answer : stopping ANY (& all) purchase of tickets onboard seems unkind, while sometimes allowing the practice can lead to an expectation of "travel first, but later" thst isn't founded in fact and may lead travellers to fall foul of the Bylaws.

 

Better education of travellers, and better ticket facilities might help......

[maninahat]

Many apologies, have just realised that train was probably FGW rather than South West. If anyone is able to amend my original title that would be great.

 

BazzaS - Agree with your comments re inconsistencies and ignorance of average traveller (me!). I think I've drifted in to the mistaken belief that confusion or error on my behalf would result in a fine, not a criminal record. Making me considerably more casual than ideal.

[BazzaS]

Absolutely, you're entirely correct. Is no excuse, just the reason for my (flawed) actions. My home station has no barriers, no machines and an office that closes often. So the idea of getting on a train with no ticket is not uncommon. Although I wouldn't say as much in a letter

 

Re-reading this, it raises an issue worth noting (though I doubt it will help you in your particular circumstances)

 

"My home station has no barriers, no machines and an office that closes often."

If there were no facilities to buy a ticket, (rather than "there was a queue") - there is a provision in Bylaw 17

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;

And an equivalent provision in Bylaw 18.

 

Scenario : Ticket office closed, machine out of order (& the TOCs will have records of these .......)

Traveller boards the train without a ticket. Seeks out on board staff and says "I need to buy a ticket".

A passing RPI pounces and says "show me your ticket", which the traveller can't....... and proceeds to make a report despite the traveller's protests and description of events)

 

(This likely won't happen, as the RPI would know which ticket offices are closed & can check which machines are out of order .... but for point of discussion let us presume they have no mobile phone signal & can't check)

 

RPI says "OK, I'll make a report : the office will check your story"

 

Situation as described : no S5 RRA1889 prosecution (as clearly no intent to avoid a fare)

No Bylaw 17 (or 18) prosecution, due to the specific defence of no facilities to buy a ticket.

 

Why won't this work for you?.

" train arrived whilst i was queueing to buy a ticket so I got on." - there were facilities to buy a ticket but you didn't wait to use them.

 

I asked previously "Did you get asked (under caution) "If I had not stopped you, would you have paid your fare" (or equivalent!), and if so : what was your reply?"

This is still relevant : it (amongst other factors) might make the difference between negotiating a settlement, a Bylaw prosecution (that is a "non-recordable" offence), and a S5 RRA 1889 prosecution (where, if convicted the offence isn't "non-recordable".

 

You mention that "As ever, the criminal record is the big problem for future employment & mortgage." - this is where recordable vs. non-recordable could come into play (depending on which employment - would you need an eDBS - enhanced DBS)?

[maninahat]

I asked previously "Did you get asked (under caution) "If I had not stopped you, would you have paid your fare" (or equivalent!), and if so : what was your reply?"

This is still relevant : it (amongst other factors) might make the difference between negotiating a settlement, a Bylaw prosecution (that is a "non-recordable" offence), and a S5 RRA 1889 prosecution (where, if convicted the offence isn't "non-recordable".

 

Sorry, missed that question.

 

 

I got off train in a bit of a day dream having completely forgotten about anything ticket related and walked towards nearest exit towards my workplace.

I was asked, were you leaving station without attempting to pay.

To which clearly the only answer was yes.

I don't recall being asked for a reason or explanation.

 

I get quite nervous when confronted by any authority figure, regardless of what I am doing.

So I fear I did not explain anything very well.

I assumed I was being fined, which didn't seem unreasonable.

I just meekly accepted the basic facts, I'd been on train, had no ticket and had been walking off when stopped.

 

I'm fairly resigned to having the book flung at me over a £2.70 fare. Just want to make sure I don't make things any worse than they are.

[timbo58]

The reason they didn't ask you anything after the 'were you leaving the station without paying' question was that you answered in the affirmative.

 

Since this proves intent to avoid the payment -the fare was due at or before the time of travel and you failed to pay, failed to pay on the train and failed again to pay at the destination.

This being the case you can't then claim at a later date in court that it was your intent to pay since all of your actions and your statement prove otherwise.

[maninahat]

Ok, pleasing update on this today.

 

 

Received a letter this morning (two weeks after being stopped) allowing me to settle for an 80 pound admin fee.

 

 

As you can probably tell from my previous posts, this is a very satisfactory outcome and I was on the phone with credit card in hand immediately.

 

Thank you to the couple of members who took the time to answer queries and reassure me.

 

 

It is much appreciated, as was a lot of the information in other topics which although no longer required did a lot to relax me at a stressful moment.

 

 

Before you ask, I will be donating to the site before disappearing in to the ether.

 

Please feel free to lock this topic.

[honeybee13]

Hello there and thank you for the update. That's great news, well done to you and to the caggers who advised you. I'll close your thread as requested.

 

And thank you for the donation, that will help us to carry on advising people like yourself.

 

HB

 

PS Before you disappear into the ether, please have a look around some of our other forums, you may find help on other matters.

[dx100uk]

glad to help...

 

dx