my friend Cathy and benefits story

[Helen2264]

These two are right at the top, so they should ultimately take responsibility for any failings:

Derek French/Clare Elliot

Head of Work Programmes

Department for Work and Pensions

Level 4

Steel City House

56 West Street

Sheffield

S1 2GQ

 

If you need any further information, please ask.[/quote

 

Thank you for the address, appreciate it!

[Helen2264]

Hello Everyone,

 

My friend Cathy has her second Work Programme next Friday, I am requesting a private room for her as she is cannot cope being in a room full of people, lol Ingeus WP blatantly told her she cannot have a private room for her next appointment but this matter has been solved for us due to all your valuable help, she hasn't sign anything as yet, I shall be extremely cautious about that too for her sake.

 

Just would like your opinion I was thinking of showing the next WP at Ingeus that my friend's case are genuine by providing letters from few years and very recent one to prove that I have been helping her as well as Cathy's mother dealing with all their affairs because of both their mental illness, they are not able to deal with anything!

 

At the first appointment when I told the WP about cathy's mental illness and that I have proof he quickly fob me off as if he didn't want to know or want to see any proof and give me the feeling that he has no intention of having such documents in his possession because that would make it difficult for them! The fact that the WP himself agreed and admitted that Cathy's mental health is bad that she will not way be push to do anything or being made to take part in group activity and only at the end slipped out of his mouth aggressively that a private room will not be made available makes me mad, they trick people so much with their talk and I want to make sure that this does not happen again.

 

I thought if the next WP at Ingeus has those documents in her possession she cannot fob Cathy off , I will be emailing those documents because if I take them with us I am sure she will at all cost avoid taking them from me or even look at them, Cathy is worse off since the last appointment and I know genuinely she will not cope on her own with Ingeus or being around people she doesn't know and trust, she cannot remember something said to her within second how on earth is she suppose to cope with that lot.

 

Do you guys and ladies think it's a good idea that I send those documents, I am very concern for Cathy that's why I want them to know how mentally ill she is written in black and white so to speak!

 

Thanks everybody in advance.

 

 

 

helen

[Mr.P]

Personally, I'd be reluctant to pass on any document giving information about health conditions - Unless they are qualified and registered health professionals, they wouldn't know the difference between a stubbed toe or frostbite. Certainly present them with proof of Power of Attorney and keep demanding a private room.

 

If they don't want the MH docs in Cathy's file, it does raise a couple of questions...

 

 

• They would have to acknowledge her condition and are unable to provide help and/or support.
  
• If they have to acknowledge her status as a vulnerable adult, it might suggest that they can't or won't meet their legal obligations or have a protection policy in place.
  
• Data security is haphazard and they can not protect confidential records from unauthorised access...
  

I'd suggest asking a few questions on Friday:

 

• What is their policy regarding the protection of vulnerable adults - You want a hard copy for Cathy's file.
  
• If they claim that all staff have been CRB checked, ask if it was an enhanced check and how many failed or were flagged as a risk ?
  
• How many qualified First Aid at Work persons are on site, and do they have defib training ?
  
• Top of the list: What practical and worthwhile help can they provide that isn't already being provided by (NHS) qualified professionals ?
  

Ingeus should have had additional supporting documents from the DWP when the referral was made - Part of the paperwork should have included a marker to flag up Cathy's status - Ask for a copy of the referral form and the supporting paper forms. They may try to hide behind the Data Protection Act and/or confidentiality clauses.

[Helen2264]

Personally, I'd be reluctant to pass on any document giving information about health conditions - Unless they are qualified and registered health professionals, they wouldn't know the difference between a stubbed toe or frostbite. Certainly present them with proof of Power of Attorney and keep demanding a private room.

 

 

 

If they don't want the MH docs in Cathy's file, it does raise a couple of questions...

 

 

 

• They would have to acknowledge her condition and are unable to provide help and/or support.
  
• If they have to acknowledge her status as a vulnerable adult, it might suggest that they can't or won't meet their legal obligations or have a protection policy in place.
  
• Data security is haphazard and they can not protect confidential records from unauthorised access...
  

 

I'd suggest asking a few questions on Friday:

 

 

• What is their policy regarding the protection of vulnerable adults - You want a hard copy for Cathy's file.
  
• If they claim that all staff have been CRB checked, ask if it was an enhanced check and how many failed or were flagged as a risk ?
  
• How many qualified First Aid at Work persons are on site, and do they have defib training ?
  
• Top of the list: What practical and worthwhile help can they provide that isn't already being provided by (NHS) qualified professionals ?
  

 

Ingeus should have had additional supporting documents from the DWP when the referral was made - Part of the paperwork should have included a marker to flag up Cathy's status - Ask for a copy of the referral form and the supporting paper forms. They may try to hide behind the Data Protection Act and/or confidentiality clauses.

 

Thank you Paul for your reply, the documents I wanted to show are not information about Cathy’s health conditions, they are letters that I’ve written on her and her mother’s behalf over the years with regards to their affairs, because of her mental illness, it’s to show Ingeus WP that she has not been capable of handling those affairs and still cannot as the recent letters would show, also some of the letters written to different organisations mentioned about her unpredictable angry outburst when under pressure that she has had when being around people on her own without my help.

 

I gather they would want a good reason why she needs a private room so I thought those letters would show good enough reasons as solid proof. The power of attorney document was taken for Cathy’s mother showing my name on the power of attorney because Cathy is not able to deal with her mother’s affairs.

 

You see when I was trying to tell the first WP that I deal with all phone calls and letters on Cathy’s behalf I was fob off and them not having solid written documents to prove otherwise they would certainly write a different story altogether and get her to participate in the work programme which they were pushing her towards regardless what I’ve said about her not able to cope being around group of people. I feel if the letters are in their possession they cannot deny they have not been made aware that Cathy are not able to participate or unable being in a room full of people, I want to catch them right from the start.

 

Thank you again for those valuable advices I shall take note and put it to the Ingeus WP.

 

 

helen

[Mr.P]

I get the feeling that you may be getting yourself worked up and expecting the worst. By all means, take the documents with you on Friday just in case you need them. If they don't provide a private room and/or refuse to make the facilities available for any future appointments, then you have reason to put your foot down.

 

A private room is to be provided to protect client confidentiality - You have made repeated requests on that basis, which has been accepted for the initial interview and perhaps demonstrates grudging acceptance on the part of Ingeus. Why should you need to provide evidence to justify the right to privacy !

[biggeorge]

Helen, I believe you can request a private room as you will be recording the interview.

 

I will see if I can find the correct document for you and post up.

 

Basically says you can record all interviews but then these must be in a private room as

no data protection breach from other clients who are there.

 

I would attend on Friday but while there asking for a private room as you wish to record the appointment,

If they refuse a private room you can ask for the appointment to be re-scheduled when a private room is available

and a member of staff willing to be filmed/recorded audio or video.

 

Will find the document for you so you can print it out and waste any arguments from Ingeus that you can't do it.

 

George

[Mr.P]

Helen, I believe you can request a private room as you will be recording the interview.

 

I will see if I can find the correct document for you and post up.

 

Basically says you can record all interviews but then these must be in a private room as no data protection breach from other clients who are there.

 

Quoting from a FoI request https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/recording_interactions_with_work:

 

There is currently no Work Programme provider guidance available specifically outlining the process providers must follow if a participant wishes to record their interactions with their provider. [...]

We would advise if a participant wishes to record their interactions with a provider, they should request this in advance, so that where possible appropriate arrangements, such as finding a private room, can be made. [...]In addition, the participant should only use the recording taken for domestic purposes and not, for example, publish it on the internet, which could breach data protection principles.

 

A WP provider has an obligation (both contractual and legal) to protect the privacy and confidentiality of all clients. There are additional statutory requirements when dealing with vulnerable adults, some of which can be addressed by providing a private room.

[Helen2264]

I get the feeling that you may be getting yourself worked up and expecting the worst. By all means, take the documents with you on Friday just in case you need them. If they don't provide a private room and/or refuse to make the facilities available for any future appointments, then you have reason to put your foot down.

 

A private room is to be provided to protect client confidentiality - You have made repeated requests on that basis, which has been accepted for the initial interview and perhaps demonstrates grudging acceptance on the part of Ingeus. Why should you need to provide evidence to justify the right to privacy !

 

 

Thank you Paul, I agree I am beginning to feel all worked up, I've send an email to ingeus wp I didn't bother to close any documents at this time, I have requested for a private room for Cathy and gave reasons, I am trying to make sure they don't get away with anything because of the first appointment, the fobbing off, the don't listen and the aggressive talk telling her she will not get a private room next time, that has thrown her right off, the making her feel very worthless saying there are people worst off than her and is working, I would like to see it for myself, lol Cathy forgets everything within less than a minute if someone worst off than her is working I would like to see it!

 

I am happy to know because it will be a very long time before she'll be able to be in a room full of people or in group activities, first it's her anger management need sorting when under pressure because of her short term memory, they'll have a lot on their hands to cope with but I will go to all the appointments with her that is if she can attend at all!

 

cheers now we shall wait until friday for that dreaded appointment, she has doctor's appointment tomorrow and hospital appointment coming up! I wonder what they would say when I show them document from the hospital psychiatrists saying cathy need long term on going psychiatrists help and they are forcing someone that ill to work!

 

helen

[Helen2264]

Quoting from a FoI request https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/recording_interactions_with_work:

 

 

 

A WP provider has an obligation (both contractual and legal) to protect the privacy and confidentiality of all clients. There are additional statutory requirements when dealing with vulnerable adults, some of which can be addressed by providing a private room.

 

Thank you for the link appreciate a lot! I recorded the first appointment got some vital conversations on there the wp saying cathy is no way well enough to take part in anything as yet, but by the end of the appointment his attitude changed, whether is was trying to get our trusts from being caring at the beginning but still I don't think he is aware what I have on record, i don't think he was aware my ipad mini was recording anything at all but things came out loud and clear lol!

[Nystagmite]

Have you (or Cathy) quoted the Equalities Act? In the sense that a private room is a reasonable adjustment.

[Helen2264]

Helen, I believe you can request a private room as you will be recording the interview.

 

I will see if I can find the correct document for you and post up.

 

Basically says you can record all interviews but then these must be in a private room as

no data protection breach from other clients who are there.

 

I would attend on Friday but while there asking for a private room as you wish to record the appointment,

If they refuse a private room you can ask for the appointment to be re-scheduled when a private room is available

and a member of staff willing to be filmed/recorded audio or video.

 

Will find the document for you so you can print it out and waste any arguments from Ingeus that you can't do it.

 

George

 

 

Thank you so much Biggeorge, I appreciate your times and advice, I've requested for the private room and if they do refuse I shall ask for another appointment for Cathy, not sure yet if I will get a reply to my email I sent this morning but if we get to the appointment a private room is not available I've told Cathy already to just follow me we'll be going straight out the door telling them we must have a private room for her appointment!

 

cheers

 

 

helen

[Helen2264]

Hello All,

 

Got a phone call from Ingeus this morning the person who was supposed to see my friend this friday cancelled the appointment saying she is leaving the company and that a new letter will follow in 2 weeks time for my friend to see a new Ingeus advisor. I wonder if my email scared her also I gave her a little story about Cathy how they are making my friend ten time worse and that myself is starting to get ill with all the stress they've caused she went somewhat quiet!

 

Just thought I come and share!

[Mr.P]

Get the cancellation in writing, either an email or a proper letter - This will cover your back if they try any funny business with sanctions (unlikely, but some WP providers have been known to try it on).

[Helen2264]

Get the cancellation in writing, either an email or a proper letter - This will cover your back if they try any funny business with sanctions (unlikely, but some WP providers have been known to try it on).

 

Thank you Paul I've sent an email to the Ingeus Lady who rang yesterday straight away put in writing about the telephone conversation, her and I had about the cancellation and the new letter which will be send in two weeks times, I have sent her another email today and ask her to put in writing about the cancellation lets hope we'll get a reply!

[Helen2264]

Hello All,

 

Can someone please tell me what is the earliest they've send their new esa50 renewal for esa WRAG! My friend's esa wrag runs out 30/11/2013! I want to start filling in the esa form for her next months which would give us time to filling in bit by bit properly!

 

Can someone please refresh my memory of the abbreviation of both the esa Work activity group and the support group in long sentence! I am always confused which is which as the sound similar

 

Thanks

[**Margaret**]

:Helen2264:

 

The 30 November date is only a recommendation. If Jobcentreplus go with it your friend will receive a new ESA50 anytime from 1 October. The theory, not often realised cos of Atos backlogs, is for a new decision by the time the old one runs out. You can't submit a new ESA50 until Atos ask for one, but there's no harm in having one prepared.

 

Claimants who are found to have limited capability for work are awarded employment n support allowance with the work related activity component and placed in the work related activity group. (WRAG)

 

Claimants who are found to have limited capability for work related activity are awarded employment n support allowance with the support component and placed in the support group. (work related activity is optional)

Margaret.

[45002]

I wonder does the OP mean a ESA3 form under 365 days rule for people in the WRAG group ?

[Charlotte_Henderson]

One has to ask why your friend is even on the work programme in the first place?

 

I went to ingeus yesterday and pleased to say i dont have to go for another 6 weeks

 

I have a new advisor and so far he seems human, not like the usual idiots i see there....

[jasta11]

I have a new advisor and so far he seems human....

 

..hold a mirror in front of him and see if he has a reflection..

[Charlotte_Henderson]

..hold a mirror in front of him and see if he has a reflection..

 

Might be abit obvious if i dont that surely, have afew friends who also seen him and say the same as me.

[Helen2264]

Thank you starryeyes52 and 45002, I was thinking of filling the form early to ensure it is filled in properly instead of the mad panic of only 4 weeks to fill in the form, times flies so quick at the moment!

 

And yes I was thinking of the 365 days rule for esa wrag!

[**Margaret**]

:Helen2264:

 

The end of employment n support with the work related activity component cos it's been paid for a year won't necessarily trigger a new work capability assessment. There may be a new ESA50 if the recommended prognosis was a year but reassessment of capability and the time limit on payments aren't linked.

 

Telephone/paper ESA1 claim form for employment n support, or conversion award from incapacity benefit? If it's the former, and your friend doesn't have other income, transfer to an income related award should be automatic.

 

If the award was a conversion from incapacity benefit, and she doesn't have other income, she needs to get an ESA3 form to apply for an income related award. Preferably from her benefit centre, cos it's a long form and expensive to print. Unfortunately we've been short of ESA3s for several months. If she can't get hold of one there's a downloadable and printable copy at #7 of;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387812-ESA-365-Limit

 

Regards, Margaret.

[Helen2264]

:Helen2264:

 

The end of employment n support with the work related activity component cos it's been paid for a year won't necessarily trigger a new work capability assessment. There may be a new ESA50 if the recommended prognosis was a year but reassessment of capability and the time limit on payments aren't linked.

 

Telephone/paper ESA1 claim form for employment n support, or conversion award from incapacity benefit? If it's the former, and your friend doesn't have other income, transfer to an income related award should be automatic.

 

If the award was a conversion from incapacity benefit, and she doesn't have other income, she needs to get an ESA3 form to apply for an income related award. Preferably from her benefit centre, cos it's a long form and expensive to print. Unfortunately we've been short of ESA3s for several months. If she can't get hold of one there's a downloadable and printable copy at #7 of;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387812-ESA-365-Limit

 

Regards, Margaret.

 

Thank you Margaret for your reply! I am sorry I am still confused by it all. Cathy was receiving Incapacity Benefit and then went on ESA WRAG after passing her medical, she had no other income apart from her Incapacity Benefit and have no other income now only her ESA WRAG money!

 

She is receiving ESA WRAG contributed based, I haven't got a clue about it all whether the DWP send new form or she need to make sure the esa form are sent on time! I haven't been well of late been in severe pains myself and haven't sleep well for days still feeling exhausted and it has been a stressful time since Cathy was put on the work programme, her mental illness has been made worst and me having to ensure Ingeus give her a fair treatment!

 

Are you saying that she will automatically be put on the ESA Income related work activity when her ESA WRAG contributed based runs out?

 

Appreciate your help!

 

helen

[Helen2264]

:Helen2264:

 

The end of employment n support with the work related activity component cos it's been paid for a year won't necessarily trigger a new work capability assessment. There may be a new ESA50 if the recommended prognosis was a year but reassessment of capability and the time limit on payments aren't linked.

 

 

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387812-ESA-365-Limit

 

Regards, Margaret.

 

I've read the posts from the attached link, looks like I have to fill in the ESA3 form on time perhaps from the 1st October 2013 and sent it off before Cathy's ESA WRAG runs out, I hope that is correct?

 

Thanks

 

 

helen

[**Margaret**]

:Helen2264:

 

You're not alone. Employment n support allowance feels like the most complex benefit in history!

 

Right, your friend was in receipt of incapacity benefit which was converted to an award of employment n support allowance with the work related activity component (WRAG). Based on her national insurance contributions and time limited to three hundred and sixty five days. Six to eight weeks before her payments end she should get a letter from Jobcentreplus to say her payments will end on xxxxxx, and that she needs to complete an ESA3 for an income related award.

 

Why is your friend tangled up with Ingeus? They're voluntary for claimants with wholly contributions based awards. Although it'll become mandatory when she transfers to an income related award if her recommended period before reassessment is less than eighteen months.

 

Hope you're feeling better soon. Not easy for anyone coping with the complexities of employment n support. Best wishes, Margaret.