Small claims court wasted time defending a claim

[joeneedshelp]

Hi all,

 

I've been referred by my friend to this forum to get some advice.

 

I have been taken to court over a property dispute with a neighbour.

 

 

Despite repeated evidence that we are not liable and potential fraud committed by the claimant submitting

a modified copy of the land registry documents to court and us to make it appear we are liable she is still going ahead with the case

 

This has been going on since Feb this year and the final hearing is tomorrow. I'm a bit annoyed for spending this year thinking about this case, hunting for evidence, drafting letters, speaking with various people for advice etc even though it was blatantly obvious she is out to make a quick buck on someone elses expense.

 

The reason for my post and apologies for this lateness

but my friend mentioned that I could potentially claim costs for wasted time etc.

 

 

I haven't incurred much cost as I only mailed one letter and dropped off the others by hand (as the claimaint had done to keep costs low).

 

 

My biggest annoyance was the stress and time I've wasted thinking about this case.

So can I claim back any costs? If so and if any one can point me to some guidelines for claiming I would be ever so grateful.

[AndyOrch]

Thread moved to the correct forum.

 

Welcome to CAG joeneedshelp

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BankFodder]

You probably should have come to us a long time ago.

 

Anyway, wasted costs order are quite rare and you would have to do be able to show that the claimant really had litigated in a very unreasonable manner.

 

I'm assuming that your case is on the small claims track. If it is not on the small claims track then if you win you will be awarded costs anyway and you want to be prepared for this by having all of the time and effort that you have taken listed out very carefully so that you have got a well detailed and justified account of the time and expenses to which you have been put dealing with this matter. You can be certain that a judge will never award costs simply on the basis of your feeling or your rough estimate. You will have to justify any claim and also you have to make sure that it all looks reasonable and that you're simply not in a goldrush.

 

If it is a small claim then it is quite exceptional for costs to be awarded against the loser and you will have to make very cogent case. You will also have to show that you have conducted on your side of the litigation very reasonably indeed.

 

Be very careful about going to court and shouting fraud. Judges don't like to hear this unless there is very clear evidence of it. Otherwise they consider is simply bickering between the parties.

[joeneedshelp]

Thanks BankFodder, and thanks for the tip on the 'fraud' word. Just that we had this checked with a solicitor (a friend and he didn't charge us for it) and he mentioned that the claimant unknowingly (or knowingly) has committed fraud by modifying the land registry documents. But you're right I'll let the judge decide that for himself.

 

As for the costs what can I claim for? Can I claim for time preparing the documents at an hourly rate?

The hearing is in the morning so I plan to take a half days leave from work. Can I claim for that?

If so, are there any quick templates I should follow?

Lastly, and I know this is a silly question, but what should I call the judge? 'Sir', 'Your Honour'?

Apologies, I've never been in this situation before

[joeneedshelp]

And sorry and I know I'm late but I only learnt today that such a site exists and that I can potentially claim some costs.

To be entirely honest, I don't really care about the money (I mean my costs, what she expects is ridiculous and I can't afford that) I just want to make a point. From her paper work it looks like this is not her first time. I can't believe a year of my life spent worrying about this case

[king12345]

Just curious to know what your neighbour is asking from you.

Can you tell us?

If you call the judge 'sir' he won't be upset.

Of course use 'madam' if the judge is a woman.

If in doubt about the gender I would go for 'your honour ' despite being incorrect

[joeneedshelp]

During the storm in Feb a gate blew over and knocked down her fence and shed. She is now claiming £2000 in damages. Turns out the gate isn't ours at all.

Once we received the evidence and we provided proof that the gate isn't ours etc we expected the case to be called off, but she is still going ahead

[BazzaS]

Thanks BankFodder, and thanks for the tip on the 'fraud' word. Just that we had this checked with a solicitor (a friend and he didn't charge us for it) and he mentioned that the claimant unknowingly (or knowingly) has committed fraud by modifying the land registry documents. But you're right I'll let the judge decide that for himself.

 

 

Can you ask your solicitor friend how the plaintiff could commit fraud unknowingly?

 

If they unknowingly submit incorrect documents that is a mistake not a fraud.

Fraud is a deliberate act, intent must be shown, so if it is unknowing : it isn't fraud.

 

I'm happy to be corrected by your solicitor friend (since I'm not a lawyer) but my understanding is that fraud isn't a strict liability offence where the actus reus alone makes out the offence, but that mens rea (intent / the guilty mind) must also be present (and coincide in time with the act).

 

Having said that, if there was an investigation of an allegation of attempted fraud, the plaintiff would have to show how they came by altered land registry documents (which were then submitted to the court) without knowledge of their alteration .......

[joeneedshelp]

For the purposes of this case I'll stay clear of the term 'fraud'

The point is, there at least 3 accounts of her lying that we have evidence of (modifying the land registry documents being one of them). Whatever her intentions were, it was made to look like it belonged to us when the original showed otherwise.

I guess I'll just list down my expenses including a reasonable £10/hr rate gathering evidence, drafting letters etc and see what comes out of it. The judge can only say no. If I win that is, you never know what she has up her sleeve.

[ashmk]

I can't see what possible case she has if you do not own the gate.

[king12345]

You should report the forgery to the police under the forgery act 1913, 2(1)(a)

 

 

Forgery of certain documents with, intent to defraud

 

(1)Forgery of the following documents, if committed with intent to defraud, shall be felony and punishable with penal servitude for life :

(a)Any will, codicil, or other testamentary document, either of a dead or of a living person, or any probate or letters of administration, whether with or without the will annexed;

 

(b)Any deed or bond, or any assignment at law or in equity of any deed or bond, or any attestation of the execution of any deed or bond ;

[joeneedshelp]

@ashmk - me too, I can't for the life of me get what evidence she has. She appears so confident though that it stresses me out. With so much going on this year I'm ****ed off to have spent so much time on this case. Not to mention the various conversations, time spent etc gathering evidence, drafting letters. Man that is time of my life I will never get back

 

@king12345 - I'm not sure if I want to involve the police at this late stage, the hearing is tomorrow morning. The reason the solicitor thought it might be unintentional is that she highlighted the two properties in dispute. But in doing so she (again) knowingly or unknowingly modified the property boundaries. The solicitor said that she might have done this naively but is fraudulent behaviour

[havinastella]

For the purposes of this case I'll stay clear of the term 'fraud'

The point is, there at least 3 accounts of her lying that we have evidence of (modifying the land registry documents being one of them). Whatever her intentions were, it was made to look like it belonged to us when the original showed otherwise.

I guess I'll just list down my expenses including a reasonable £10/hr rate gathering evidence, drafting letters etc and see what comes out of it. The judge can only say no. If I win that is, you never know what she has up her sleeve.

 

LIP rate is £18hr

 

Jogs

[joeneedshelp]

Does costs of £275 seem reasonable?

This includes 15 hours spent at gathering evidence, drafting letters. Believe me it is significantly more than this but if I did include the exact figure that would be a big amount I'd imagine

2 hours for the conciliary hearing (90 mins of which was waiting for our turn)

Half day leave tomorrow for the hearing

I've charged £10 / hour rate which is half my actual hourly rate

So just my time (17 hours + £75 for half day leave) amounts to £245.

 

Do you think this would be considered? I can reduce it if needed but I need to make a point to the claimant that she has wasted my time and her greed has cost her even more money

[joeneedshelp]

LIP rate is £18hr

 

Jogs

 

Thanks Jogs, what is LIP rate?

[havinastella]

Thanks Jogs, what is LIP rate?

 

You

 

LIP = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigant_in_person

[citizenB]

Does costs of £275 seem reasonable?

This includes 15 hours spent at gathering evidence, drafting letters. Believe me it is significantly more than this but if I did include the exact figure that would be a big amount I'd imagine

2 hours for the conciliary hearing (90 mins of which was waiting for our turn)

Half day leave tomorrow for the hearing

I've charged £10 / hour rate which is half my actual hourly rate

So just my time (17 hours + £75 for half day leave) amounts to £245.

 

Do you think this would be considered? I can reduce it if needed but I need to make a point to the claimant that she has wasted my time and her greed has cost her even more money

 

 

This is not unreasonable it is obvious you are just asking to be compensated for your wasted time. I am sure if the claimant is proved to be litigating unreasonably with the knowledge that you are not responsible and it can be proved that she has been modifying documents to make it appear otherwise - the Judge will see through this and hopefully agree that the costs should be awarded.

 

Please do come back and let us know how you get on

[king12345]

When you win tomorrow then you can report her to the police citing the above legislation.

Boundaries are already marked on the deeds map, so altering them to claim money off you is not a mistake.

[AndyOrch]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/altering-the-register-by-removing-land-from-a-title-plan-pg77/altering-the-register-by-removing-land-from-a-title-plan-practice-guide-77

[joeneedshelp]

Thanks citizenB and king12345, I'll certainly update the thread tomorrow. Even though people tell me that I should win I'm still very nervous. In a way I'll be happy it is all over which ever way it goes, its just been so long

[steampowered]

Does costs of £275 seem reasonable?

This includes 15 hours spent at gathering evidence, drafting letters. Believe me it is significantly more than this but if I did include the exact figure that would be a big amount I'd imagine

2 hours for the conciliary hearing (90 mins of which was waiting for our turn)

Half day leave tomorrow for the hearing

I've charged £10 / hour rate which is half my actual hourly rate

So just my time (17 hours + £75 for half day leave) amounts to £245.

 

Do you think this would be considered? I can reduce it if needed but I need to make a point to the claimant that she has wasted my time and her greed has cost her even more money

275 is less than an hour of time from a senior solicitor. I think you are going in far too low.

 

As above the litigant in person rate is 18 an hour. I would prepare a short schedule of costs which should be a realistic estimate of every second you have spent on the case. Don't be tempted to underestimate - if the judge thinks you have spent too much time then he will cut it back anyway. I don't think a figure north of 1000 would be at all unreasonable.

 

As mentioned above costs are rarely awarded in small claims, but if you can convince the judge that the other side has fraudulently modified documents in an attempt to mislead the court then I would think that a costs order should follow.

 

Make sure you have your documents in order so that you can clearly show all this to the judge - the judge is not going to independently look at the land registry website for example. Good luck.

[BazzaS]

Any update?

(Did the court hearing occur as planned?)