IVA with Churchwood/Kingsgate Insolvency. Money Gone Missing?

[silentmovieman]

So I emailed KIngsgate and they duly obliged by providing me a breakdown of where the money went.

 

A couple of things Ive noticed on the list are -

 

1) The payment dates begin March 2009 which is ten months after we had the IVA agreed upon

2) The payments were made every four months

3) There are seven creditor reference numbers listed for each set of payments but only four of them actually recieved any money

4) The debt that began all of this is not listed on the list of payments. I have gone back through all of the documentation and the Northern Rock debt that is now being handled by Marlin is clearly mentioned as part of the IVA but it seems for some reason to have been ignored when it comes to the allocation of payments.

 

I think its cleconfirm for sure that they have ar that the issue here relates to the mess they seem to have made regarding the Northern Rock debts that we had. There was one in my name and a seperate one inmy wifes name but they have both listed in joint names as far as I can tell. I have seen the original documentation relating to my wifes loan and it is definately in her name only.

 

Im waiting for Kingsgate to confirm the companies to whom each reference number relates to before I can be absolutely certain that my wifes NR debt has been overlooked. If it has then what is my next course of action?

[dx100uk]

urm.. the plot thickens.

 

 

dx

[silentmovieman]

Going to sit down and plort all of this out to get an absolute clear picture so will post my findings here later.

[theoldrouge]

having reread the thread

 

we dont seem to have seen the cca request reply

 

imo a sar to NR is imperative, if only for the narrative

[silentmovieman]

Marlin sent me a list of transactions dating from the inception of the loan in 2005 to the default of the IVA in March 2010. It shows that the last payment received was February 2008 which was prior to entering the IVA in May 2008, this ties in with what Ive learnt from the SAR.

 

They also sent a copy of the original credit agreement which clearly shows the loan was in my wifes sole name.

[theoldrouge]

its the narrative from NR that may reveal more

 

can we see the cca reply please

[silentmovieman]

So heres what ive surmised from the information provided in the SAR from Kingsgate.

 

27/2/08 a letter has total debts listed as follows -

 

My wife £21,479 (Barclays, Barclaycard, Halifax and NR (just her correct NR account))

Me £34,678 (Natwest x3, NR (just my correct account) and Skycard

 

This is a true reflection of the debts each of us had at the time, they had all been part of the DMP (run by Easierdebt) and we therefore expected them to carry over into the IVA

 

3/3/08 the IVA proposal was put forward in the joint names of myself and my then fiancee

14/3/08 a letter is sent to Northern Rock regarding my wifes debt with them, the letter had both her name and mine listed as joint holders of the loan

14/3/08 an identical letter is sent to NR regarding my debt with them, again this has both of our names listed as joint holders of the loan

(these two loans were actually taken on a sole basis, one by me and one by my wife)

There are alos copies of ststements referring to both NR loans which show that they are in our sole names rather than jointly held

A statement of affairs shows debts as follows -

 

Natwest £25,328 in my name (this is correct)

Natwest £97.00 in my name (correct)

Natwest £2107 in my name (correct)

NR £3943 in joint names (should be just mine)

NR £16,228 in joint names (should be in just my wifes)

Skycard £3203 in my name (correct)

 

As you can see between the end of the DMP and the start of the IVA some debts seem to have been ignored and others appear to be listed incorrectly as joint accounts

 

Once the IVA was approved we were given a summary sheet which listed both NR debts under my wifes name and the same two debts under my name. The debts are listed with a total of £47,457 (which the two NR loans contribute towards the total) for me and £18,241 (a total made up solely of the two NR debts) in my wifes name. This gives the impression that the total is £65,698 indicating that the NR debts have been counted twice. The actual totals should read Me = £32,847 and my wife £14,610 giving a total of £47,457.

 

There is also an estimated outcome statement that has three columns, one in my name, one in my wifes name and one labelled Voluntary Arrangement. The totals at the bottom of each column read £47,457 for me, £18,241 for my wife and £47,457 for Voluntary Arrangement.

 

May 2009 the outcome statement has balances of £47,541 for me, £22,130 for my wife and £51,223 for the VA column

 

2/7/2010 letter sent to NR with both account numbers and both of our names listed

 

The IVA was shut down in March 2010

 

Throughout the duration of the IVA there is no mention of my wifes Barclay debts.

 

I was declared Bankrupy in April 2011, the debts that were included in my bankruptcy were my NR loan, my Natwest loans, my Skycard debt and others that had not been included in the IVA (Argos Card, Catalogue, Bank Account)

 

Kingsgate have now provided me with a breakdown of how they have distributed the money we paid them. They list 7 different reference numbers for 7 different creditors but they only ever sent money to four of these.

 

The references they have provided are -

 

RBS - Payments sent

RBS - Payments sent

Unknown - No payments sent

Skycard - No payments sent

Unklnown - Payments sent

My NR loan - Payments sent

Unknown - No payments sent

 

As you can see there is no reference for my wifes NR loan so no monies were ever sent to them despite it being part of the IVA. I have asked Kingsgate to provide me with a list of which companies each reference number relates to so I will have a better idea of what exactly they were doing.

 

And that as best I can tell is that, for what its worth

[silentmovieman]

its the narrative from NR that may reveal more

 

can we see the cca reply please

 

Post 31 of this thread has the list of payments image scanned onto it

[dx100uk]

we keep getting different fingers in the pie

it would really be nice if we got the whole story now we see (run by Easierdebt)

 

 

 

 

if the last payment was actually feb 08, marlin can go swivel, its statute barred!

 

 

dx

[silentmovieman]

Doesnt statue barred only count as long as there has been no acknowledgement of debt.

 

The fact that a letter was sent to NR in 2010 would make statute barred void wouldn't it?

[silentmovieman]

As for the complete chain it would be as far as I can tell.....sorry I know I'm not very good at this

 

Wilson Phillips proposed IVA which was rejected. Easierdebt then stepped in and ran DMP. Two years later we spoke to Church wood who referred us to Kingsgate.

[dx100uk]

god it gets smellier by the minute.

 

 

did you find the agreement and get an sar of to NR?

 

 

dx

[silentmovieman]

I was given a copy of the agreement by Marlin. Haven't sent a SAR to NR as I was waiting to see what came back from Kingsgate.

[silentmovieman]

BTW am I right about statute barred?

[dx100uk]

get the sar done please

 

 

we need the full picture and so do you.

 

 

post up the agreement?

 

 

dx

[dx100uk]

BTW am I right about statute barred?

 

 

lets decide on that once we have all the info.

 

 

dx

[silentmovieman]

Here is the original credit agreement. As you can see its in my wife's name (fiancee at the time) but ive signed to agree to my income being considered along with hers.

 

Sorry about the quality I don't have the best camera on my phone

[silentmovieman]

Also would a SAR to NR be of any real benefit?

 

 

The issue here is with what Kingsgate did or did not do when they were in charge of the administration of the debt.

 

 

I already have the proof that they did not make any payments to the account so what benefit would contacting NR have?

[dx100uk]

the bottom line is marlin are chasing you for a debt.

 

 

that debt is from NR

 

 

you need proof direct from the OC as to what their take was on it all.

 

 

that is via documents and statements

 

 

dx

[silentmovieman]

OK so I may not have the leg to stand on that I thought I had.

 

I emailed Kingsgate for confirmation of which creditors each payment reference related to

and it turns out that one of them was indeed my wifes NR debt

(I didnt recognise it as it is not the old NR reference but rather a new reference for Marlin as they now own the debt).

 

Payments were made to the MArlin reference in March 09, July 09, October 09 and February 2010

though they dont show up on the Marlin list of transactions until January and March 2010.

 

The only thing that still confuses me about the payments are the way they are listed by Marlin

(see the list of transactions they sent me on post 31 of this thread).

 

 

Kingsgate sent 4 payments to Marlin (see above dates) and these appear as PVHO Direct Payment.

 

 

However on the same dates the same sums are also listed as WON Write on.

 

 

Now I don't understand what this means but to me it looks like the sums are added to the balance (write on)

and then immediately taken off (direct payment)

so that the balance never changes.

 

 

Am I right in this assumption or does write on mean something else?

[silentmovieman]

On a related note.

 

 

Lets assume for a second that the only option left open to my wife is to file for bankruptcy.

 

 

Now I am already bankrupt (discharged three years ago)

 

 

am I able to buy an asset (such as a car) with cash?

 

 

I understand all the rules about no more than £500 credit for the period after discharge

but if the car is bought with cash and Im a discharged bankrupt then am I able to keep it?

 

I ask as we are in need of a bigger car due to the impending arrival of our third child

but obviously if my wife buys one then it will be considered an asset in any bankruptcy

that she may file for and subsequently may be sold (the car is worth £1750).

 

 

If the car is in my name however then it is my asset right?

 

 

Under those circumstances would it be mine and therefore not considered an asset in her bankruptcy?

[dx100uk]

you need to get all the information first from NR.

 

 

dx

[silentmovieman]

I will freely admit that I don't know anywhere near as much about all this as you guys who have been more than helpful with your advice but I am still not convinced that theres any point in doing a SAR to NR.

 

THe reason I say this is that the issue I had with the outstanding debt have all been resolved.

 

1) I have never disputed that the debt existed, I was fully aware that it did and that it was included firstly in our DMP and then subsequent IVA

2) Initially I was thinking that maybe it was statute barred but unfortunatley that is not the case as the last time a payment was made in respect of this debt was March 2010 which would of course mean that statute barred would not have taken force until March 2016

3) The next issue that arose was that it at one point appeared that no payment had been recieved against this debt since February 2008 and I was concerned as to why this was. However since then I have recieved information from both Marlin and Kingsgate to show that payments were indeed made against this debt

4) There is still the issue of why it appears that the two NR debts were listed as in our joint names when they were sole debts but it appears that this may just be down to administrative errors at the time. Even if this is not the case I am able to get the answer to this issue directly from Kingsgate who have been forthcoming in response to all of my questions

 

NR were of course the original creditor in this matter but a SAR to them will not produce any new information that will help in this matter as far as I can see. The fact of the matter is that the loan was taken out, it was part of both DMP and IVA and following that default it was transferred to Marlin who as best I can tell are now perfectly within their rights to chase the outstanding monies.

 

It is also a fact that we are not in a financial position to repay the debt so the next action should be an offer on how to repay the debt. Failing that they will likely apply for a CCJ which will then have a detrimental effect on other debts that my wife has that did not form part of the IVA. The court action would state that the MArlin debt should be given the same treatment as her other debts and what money we can afford be passed out among her creditors. This would default on the minimum payment on the debts that she has been paying correctly etc.

 

With this in mind it would appear to me that should an offer be made to Marlin and be rejected then her only real option would be to file for bankruptcy which in itself raises the issue I have mentioned above in reference to the car situation.

 

Like I said I certainly don't know it all but as far as I can see a SAR to NR will only achieve us spending another £10 which we don't really need to.

[dx100uk]

you were asked in September to SAR NR.

 

for some reason,

having been asked numerous times over the two pages of this thread

you still have not.

 

if you cant or wont help us to help you

I see little point in wasting more of my time.

 

all your have done is continues to speculate this and that.

 

get the facts please

 

dx

[theoldrouge]

sadly, you couldnt be more wrong

 

Marlin will have purchased this debt for around 10p in the pound

 

yet you continue to accept without question everything you are being told by Marlin/Kingsgate

 

the narrative of the sar from NR could be worth far more to you

 

than the £10 you are so reluctant to spend

 

Anyway your choice, so be it