UKCPS outside marked bay - Cheshire Oaks

[LFOZ89]

Hi All,

 

I have been reading through a number of threads and it appears "just ignore it" is no longer an option.

 

I have received today (14th July 2014) a letter from UKCPS regarding an unpaid contractual parking charge.

The letter is requesting £100 to be paid in 28 days.

 

It states on the 07 June 2014 the vehicle was observed "out of a marked bay"

and that a parking charge was fixed to the vehicle.

A reduced charge of £60 is no longer an option as I did not pay.

 

Nothing has been attached to the car when I have been to the outlet.

I often go half a dozen times in a month and I cannot recall parking out of a bay.

I certainly have never seen a parking ticket on the windscreen.

 

I have found a number of templates to appear the charge but does any one have any guidance on my case?

 

Thanks for any advice in advance,

 

The annoying thing is I park in a multi storey car park for work and get really fed up of bad parking.

I make sure I always park correctly.

I also spend hundreds of pounds in Cheshire oaks and being slapped with £100

for something like this is really frustrating

 

Thanks again

[renegadeimp]

Just appeal it. It's free parking so get them through popla. bay markings in a private car park have no relevance in law. You could park across 3 if you wanted and theres sod all they could do. Sure, you'd be a complete idiot to other car park users, but still....

 

 

So in short, appeal to them however you want, theyll reject it. Get a popla reference number from them and go from there. With a free car park, youre pretty much guaranteed to win if you use the right appeal through POPLA.

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

You say you never saw a ticket on the windscreen. Was this an Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) ticket?

[LFOZ89]

Thanks renegadeimp - i will certainly make the necessary appeals - and I can guarantee i didn't park across three bays

 

Thanks Silverfox1961 - there are no cameras in the car park I am assuming it is patrolled

[silverfox1961]

Thanks Silverfox1961 - there are no cameras in the car park I am assuming it is patrolled

 

I realised my error after posting. How could a camera see if you were outside the lines. DOH!

 

I have read elsewhere that some parking companies will place a ticket on the car, photograph it then remove the ticket, ensuring the driver has no chance to appeal. Not saying this bunch of cowboys would do so but.......

 

Sooooo, follow Imps post and ensure you demand a POPLA code if they decide to reject your appeal. (which they will)

[ericsbrother]

Appeal on any argument you want but whilst you are about it demand a true copy of the charge notice that was applied to your windscreen and a photograph of it in situ ( you can then look for any detail that is different). also ask for a photograph of your vehicle parked outside the bay and then ask what is the legal definition of a parking bay and its markings and dimensions when not on the public highway.

You might be able to guess the answer to this.

It seems to be a common problem for UKPCS, the tickets blowing away with monotonous regularity. When you get theresult of your appeal to them and the POPLA code you should write to the BPA and make a complaint about this obvious problem they have and ask the BPA what advice they intend to offer UKPCS as it looks to the ill-informed that an attempt to avoid issuing a POPLA code by deceptive means.

[LFOZ89]

Thanks all for the feedback.I have taken a template letter from the forum and amended it slightly to suite.I section 12/13 (photographs) the notice did not refer to any photographic evidence so I have slightly amended the wording in these paragraphs.I have also added the request for the original parking charge and photographic evidence.Any comments/alterations to this strategy?"Name Address Date without prejudice , except as to costs Notice to Keeper [Give its ref number] On (date) I was the registered keeper of a [insert make and model] registration number [insert Reg]. Before I decide how to deal with your Notice to Keeper, I should be grateful if you would first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below. Once you have done so, I will be able to make an informed decision on how I deal with the matter. I dispute the parking charge for the reasons set out below. Please note that although I dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is its disproportionate and punitive level. 1. No contract There was no contract between the driver and UKPCS. The driver did not see any contractual information on any signs when entering the car park and therefore at that time had no idea that any contract or restrictions applied. As a consequence the requirements for forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, and certainty of terms were not satisfied. 2. Trespass If there was no contract, then at most the driver was guilty of a civil trespass (though this is neither admitted nor denied). If this were the case, the driver may be liable to damages. Given that no ‘damage’ was done to the car park and that the car park was not completely full when the driver parked or when the driver left, there was in fact no loss at all. 3. Punitive/unfair/unreasonable charge Even if there was a contract (which is denied), the following matters are relevant: 3(a). Punitive The parking charge you are imposing is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable). The £100 parking charge is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. This would also apply to any mention of any costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed a court order. 3(b). Unfair The £100 parking charge you are imposing is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations which gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e): ‘Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.’ Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) says: ‘A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer’ And 5(2), which states: ‘A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.’ 3©. Unreasonable The £100 parking charge you are imposing is an unreasonable indemnity clause under section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, which says: ‘A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.’ Further information I require you to provide and take notice of: Please note specifically that this letter is not an appeal however, it is a challenge to the issue of the Notice to Keeper as set out in the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22. I should be grateful for answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of the obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct. 4(a). Cause of action. Please make this clear. If it is your claim that the driver entered into a contract, please send me a complete version of the terms and conditions of that contract to which you say the driver agreed to. 4(b). Further to the above please explain fully on which of the following grounds your claim is based: (i) Damages for trespass (ii) Damages for breach of contract (iii) A contractual sum 5. Your loss. If it is your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages, please give me a full breakdown of the actual loss you say was suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder. 6. Appeals procedure. I require a copy of any appeal procedure you follow, along with details of what factors you take into account; who is the judge or arbitrator and whether they are independent; whether you require oral or written submissions; whether it is governed by the Arbitration Act 1996 and any other relevant factors. In addition, please give me disclosure of any arguments you would put forward on this matter in any subsequent appeal process so that either the registered keeper or the driver might consider his or her response to any existing or new issues which are raised. 8. Your status. Your Notice to Keeper simply mentions UKPCS. Please tell me who is the actual creditor making this £100 parking charge demand. I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity. 9. Ownership of premises. Please tell me who owns the car park as I wish to send them a copy of this letter. 10. Contract to operate. Please provide me with a copy of the contract between your company and the landowner/landholder. 11. Involvement of landowner/landholder. Please explain any involvement, if at all, of the landowner/landholder with the management of parking at this site and specifically with regard to the issue and enforcement of your Notices to Keeper12(a). Photographs- handling. Please send me a copy of your procedures for handling and processing evidence and the relevant audit trail. Furthermore, under section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 please send me a copy of any photographs along with a copy of all other data you hold relating to me. As this would be required to be disclosed in any event as part of your evidence bundle in the small claims process, I do not expect to pay for the release of my personal data which you hold. 12(b). Photographs – evidence. Please provide me with copies of all photographs that evidence the actual alleged parking contravention itself. I also require a copy of the charge notice that was applied to the windscreen and a photograph of it in situ.13. Signage. If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park. Also provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point. 14. Legal representation. Please provide me with the name and address of your solicitors, if any, in order that I may copy them into this correspondence. 15. To avoid doubt, please do not do any of the following: (i) Send any further correspondence or documents to me or try to communicate with me in any way except to address in writing the specific points I have raised in this letter. (ii) Send me any document purporting to be from the county court unless it is a valid claim form duly issued. (iii) Write to me threatening to send bailiffs to my address without first issuing a court claim form and obtaining judgment. (iv) Send me any standard letters from your company or debt collectors. 16. If you wish to make a claim you may do so online. My address for service is set out at the top of this letter. If you do decide to issue proceedings, please note that: (i) I reserve the right to add further arguments to the defence (ii) I or my representative will be happy to attend any court mediation that might be offered. 17. I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and a comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I shall respond to your Notice to Keeper.18. If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision. 19. If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16. Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation. Yours"

[ericsbrother]

well, it is thorough. I would be amazed if they answer your questions and probably wont if they want to leave it to POPLA, they will simply reject your appeal by saying they have considered the points you raise and reject the appeal. All other questions will not be answered due to "commercial confidentiality".

The good thing about a rejection on those grounds is it leaves them nowhere to go if it came to wanting to claim from you via the county court.

Good luck, let us know what they do say.

[LFOZ89]

Sorry for no update - but yes they sent me a reply letter saying they will cancel the charge as a gesture of good will!

 

 

Too right as well! Always spending a fortune at Cheshire Oaks and they have the cheek to try and fine me for nothing! ON A FREE CAR PARK!

[ericsbrother]

Gesture of goodwill my arse. they knew that they would be wasting £27 if they didnt cancel so rather than admitting any wrongdoing (when has a parking co ever been wrong?) they have used the mealy mouthed answer all.

PODMONA, start a new thread and tell us the circumstances and what paperwork you have received so far and on what dates. We can then sort you out.