Tories discuss stripping benefits claimants who refuse treatment

[estellyn]

I think there is often 'confusion' over the mental health problems that people are claiming ESA for, thinking that these people are just a little down, or a bit easily stressed and feel that they can't cope with work, and therefore a bit of talking therapy and coping strategies will put them right and sort things out.

 

These people have never lived with someone debilitated by their poor mental health. Someone who can't deal with basic things such as personal hygiene, eating, or even staying awake. Someone who has difficulty with basic decision making. Someone who hears the words you say but somehow interprets them completely differently. Someone who can't deal with social interactions, even their family, can't answer a phone and freaks out if a person comes to the door. Can't deal with unexpected things happening without freaking out. And this is even without having more complex issues such as schizophrenia, bipolar, ptsd etc.

 

Considering how difficult it is to get into support group with mental health problems (and I assume if this new program came into being, it would be wrag claimants targeted), then lots of people with severe issues will still be in WRAG and at risk of being subject to whatever private company of poorly trained idiots are given the contract for this work. Much damage could be done to some poorly people.

[honeybee13]

I agree, estellyn. This shows a basic misunderstanding of what it is to have a mental illness. Because it can't be x-rayed, people can't see what's going on.

 

I also had a bad experience with CBT and the snap out of it attitude is completely unhelpful.

 

HB

[Lilly_Monroe]

I agree, estellyn. This shows a basic misunderstanding of what it is to have a mental illness. Because it can't be x-rayed, people can't see what's going on.

 

I also had a bad experience with CBT and the snap out of it attitude is completely unhelpful.

 

HB

 

CBT is fine if you are in a well enough frame of mind to handle it.

I was first given this sort of treatment and could not handle it, so the CBT therapist decided I needed deeper involved therapy.

She was able to make this decision as she was trained in MH issues, what if these so called 'talkers/listeners are not.

The wrong therapy can do far more harm than good.

 

 

Also why target the mentally ill, what about those who are ill through drink or drugs or whatever and refuse help - why are the mentally ill being targeted.

[antone]

Also why target the mentally ill, what about those who are ill through drink or drugs or whatever and refuse help - why are the mentally ill being targeted.

 

Oh, I'm sure they'll go after people with substance abuse issues as well. Just give it time. But MH issues get targeted simply because no-one actually understands, as Estellyn and Honeybee pointed out. Everyone feels a bit depressed from time to time, so they assume that mental illness is just like that. It's analogous to saying that you know what it's like to lose both your legs in a car crash because you've stubbed your toe on the doorframe a few times.

[Lilly_Monroe]

Oh, I'm sure they'll go after people with substance abuse issues as well. Just give it time. But MH issues get targeted simply because no-one actually understands, as Estellyn and Honeybee pointed out. Everyone feels a bit depressed from time to time, so they assume that mental illness is just like that. It's analogous to saying that you know what it's like to lose both your legs in a car crash because you've stubbed your toe on the doorframe a few times.

 

Bit like those people who tell those who want to end their own life because they have NO quality of life left (that they cannot).

We seem very good at speaking for others, and not giving a damn what that person feels and wants.

 

The really worrying part is that I think this lot will get back into power next year, and then heaven help those who are ill, or whoever whatever does not fit into day's life style.

[worried33]

There is 2 clear problems here.

 

First of all there is an assumption been made that people are been offered treatment, believe it or not it actually can be quite hard to even get a proper diagnosis never mind appropriate treatment, so an assumption is been made that the NHS is working.

Second they are seeing the problem as a too costly benefit, rather than why are these people ill in the first place. The question is asked why do they have a problem with ill people getting benefit, why is it such a big deal to them, to save something like 0.05p of their income tax? its silly.

 

Everything I have heard and learnt about mental illness is that the worst thing you can do to someone mentally ill is to push them, put them under pressure. Which is exactly what kicking them off benefits does.

 

Not to mention the obvious issue, who has liability for when enforced treatment goes wrong?

[Guest]

The main problem I had with CBT was that focus on the theory of dealing with how you feel now and making it better in the future, I wasn't allowed to talk about the past, almost being told to forget it and move on......considering my past was a hotbed of mental and emotional abuse, I found that impossible and the scars are still there and likely always will be. I was 52yrs old when I started CBT, that's literally 52yrs of all that abuse, to just forget. The good things I got from CBT were the coping techniques but like I said in my other post, that's all very well on the days/times I can do them. The meds alone don't kick it either. Its almost like the weekly/2 weekly sessions were brainwashing me, as when I was signed out from the therapy into the real world, a lot of it faded into a distant blur. Some of the main techniques I use when I can, but often is the old faithful of peace and quiet and a dark room (no joke) that calms me in time and I rest it out, which can take weeks but is the kindest and best way I find for me to ease out of anxiety and uplift from the lows of my bipolar. I cannot shop alone ever, I cannot deal with unexpected visitors ever, phone calls from anyone other than my son or daughter ever.......those are normal days for me. Sorry to ramble. I cant see this new idea based on ignorance being any good to those who are ill, which makes it a typical idea from government. Seems despite the work of MIND and others we have still not come far at all really.

[Shoelover]

Genuine question.. Is it that hard to access care for and treatment for MH problems?

 

Sounds like a slippery slope to me. Once they start insisting those with MH issues get treatment as a condition of benefit, who will be next? And who decides what is "compliance"? I know of a very obese man who is diabetic, he's in a wheelchair so doesn't burn any calories. Like many obese people it's not as simple as just eating less. So, what about people like him? After all he's the first to admit his weight is a contributory factor... So would complying for him being treating the eating disorder? Losing weight?

 

Not comfortable with that at all....

[dyfed]

Two fears I have about this. Well three actually if you count the fear of this therapy for benefits policy going ahead.

 

The first is that just like the "Health care Professionals" carrying out WCA the talking therapists delivering the likes of CBT will be the same breed and employed by a sub contractor like lets say Ingeus.

 

The second, well , will this therapy end up as a box ticking exercise?

You get sent for therapy. Attend the six-ten or so sessions. Wave of the magical DWP wand and hey presto your fit for work and claiming JSA.

 

I see trouble ahead....

[Lilly_Monroe]

Genuine question.. Is it that hard to access care for and treatment for MH problems?

 

Sounds like a slippery slope to me. Once they start insisting those with MH issues get treatment as a condition of benefit, who will be next? And who decides what is "compliance"? I know of a very obese man who is diabetic, he's in a wheelchair so doesn't burn any calories. Like many obese people it's not as simple as just eating less. So, what about people like him? After all he's the first to admit his weight is a contributory factor... So would complying for him being treating the eating disorder? Losing weight?

 

Not comfortable with that at all....

 

 

It is often very hard to receive care for MH problems it is also very important to find someone you can relate/trust/like as you are going to be telling them things you have probably told no one else, to reach that stage can take a while, not all treatments allow you that time it depends on the finances, amount of staff and how your local MH team operates.

 

There are different forms of help depending upon the illness you have.

I was actually offered a psychiatrist not so long ago, but after discussion with myself and my CPN it was decided this was not the avenue for me.

I took the bold decision that the past is the past, I cannot undo it, and talking about it will not make it go away - I want to move on not live in the past.

To reach that decision you have to trust your MH support team, I read cases where this is not always so.

 

Lots of outsiders offer you advice it is amazing how they think they know what is best for you after a 10 min discussion - if you end up taking their advice and it goes wrong the consequences could be disastrous.

 

MH illness is not like cancer or any other it various so much depending on the person themselves, the help they receive, the right medication, remembering to take the medication their will to want to get better being just a few of the obstacles along the way no one size fits all.

 

How this can and will work defeats me (but if it is like all their other schemes it won't work) just make more people even more depressed.

[Shoelover]

It is often very hard to receive care for MH problems it is also very important to find someone you can relate/trust/like as you are going to be telling them things you have probably told no one else, to reach that stage can take a while, not all treatments allow you that time it depends on the finances, amount of staff and how your local MH team operates.

 

There are different forms of help depending upon the illness you have.

I was actually offered a psychiatrist not so long ago, but after discussion with myself and my CPN it was decided this was not the avenue for me.

I took the bold decision that the past is the past, I cannot undo it, and talking about it will not make it go away - I want to move on not live in the past.

To reach that decision you have to trust your MH support team, I read cases where this is not always so.

 

Lots of outsiders offer you advice it is amazing how they think they know what is best for you after a 10 min discussion - if you end up taking their advice and it goes wrong the consequences could be disastrous.

 

MH illness is not like cancer or any other it various so much depending on the person themselves, the help they receive, the right medication, remembering to take the medication their will to want to get better being just a few of the obstacles along the way no one size fits all.

 

How this can and will work defeats me (but if it is like all their other schemes it won't work) just make more people even more depressed.

 

Oh bless you.. I have suffered from a reactive depression in the past. I can't even begin to imagine how it must grind you down when an illness like that just grinds on and on.

 

I guess the other thing about a mental health issue is it is very often a hidden disability. When some one is physically disabled you can often "see" the problem. Whereas a metal illness is to a large extent unseen. I guess that's why people with such issues are easy "targets" for this.

[matt v atos]

Yes thats the key word Easy targets.

[Vikix]

It will never work, I have been suffering from Mental health problems for over 5 years, I have been through many different therapies, counselling and medication. It will cost them too much to try and find the right treatment for every single person.

[Guest]

If its wasn't so worrying it would be laughable, they cut back on the availability of the very treatment they are now saying a claimant cant refuse?.........CBT was offered to me via computer by someone who clearly hadn't got me at all, I refused that, it took a letter from my GP to mental health team to get an offer of group therapy, which again wasn't for me, being in a room with other people was part of what I couldn't do/face/cope with......eventually after a misdiagnosis coming to light 2yrs later I got the one to one with CPN. Some of it was helpful and they did back me to the dwp and that helped me win my tribunal for benefit. I can see this being shot to the ground hopefully before it starts. I cannot see any mental health professionals backing this one.

[Nystagmite]

From experience, there's very little help for MH conditions. I've tried to get help twice and really struggled. Partly because I find it hard to admit what was really going on. Partly because the second time, I have a gap of about 3 days where I couldn't remember anything (aside from someone knocking on my door at 6am and a hallmate waking me up around 4pm) at all.

[lenny100]

i myself suffer from bi-poler, ptsd, and quite a few others, and relay one a charity for help, but they are swamped by new clients and i only get two weeks residentual care per year now, the local nhs admit they are unable to help me, just help me manage my condisions so I dont get any worse, so now somebody is going to be payed thousands to give me a few sesions of cbt, which does not work for me , in fact i got worse on it, and i am now ready to work, Now that i am magicly well, please name me one employer who will take on somebody who oftern will not be able to get out of bed for a few weeks , is very short temperd, is unable to be in a room of people were he is unable to see outside and pesonal highine at time is doutfull!

[fletch70]

Only just seen this and makes me so angry

1) There is almost no help out there for treatment so how does that work?

2) CBT can and does work but not for everyone and the level of success is varied i.e it can make you a lot better or a little better . It is all well and good knowing the theory but actually believing it is a whole different story

3) Yes most people with MH issues want to get better, no one really wants to live in a world where they are not well but of course some will see no point in getting better or even believe that they are ok, part of the illness

4) Sometimes the only treatment is time, I am a lot better than I was 3 years ago , and I mean a lot better but still need some support and help to get back into work

5) Maybe it is IDS who should be on ESA for delusions of grandeur or maybe NPD

[essexmat]

This government will end up killing people (already has) - despicable is too kind a word for them

[Lilly_Monroe]

This government will end up killing people (already has) - despicable is too kind a word for them

 

This also makes it even harder for people with MH problems to admit they are receiving benefits as you can almost hear the 'doubters' with their calls of scroungers.

 

It is hard to admit to being ill as it is, took me a long time to admit to my GP 'I need help' I can see this putting more people off, (but then I guess this will suit the Tories down to the ground.

 

Cannot see the MH profession having any real say in this, just as the GPs did not over ATOS and the likes.

 

Not so long ago there was a government ad about MH and discrimination in the work place, (who is the one doing the discriminating now).

[essexmat]

I am surprised I am on JSA and not ESA myself - I suffer with OCD, depression, anxiety etc. Every time I am about to go away I get it. This weekend I am away with friends for 2 days and I have a stomach upset, dizziness and worry over travel etc - I am on ADs and have had counselling in the past but in the last few weeks it has got worse. Try getting help like counselling or CBT on the NHS and it is almost impossible. Lifestyle and scenarios play a big part and I have no doubt I have got worse since being unemployed. I suffered when in work but not on a daily basis. I am struggling to get up in the morning and everything is too much for me at the moment.

 

All in all the Tories think it is being lazy and the worse thing anyone can say when you have conditions such as these is "pull yourself together" Basically we are being told we are over playing these conditions and not seeking help. How about WE ARE as we do not want to be like this but there is simply not enough resources available for us to use and try to combat this. I ended up paying private for counselling when in work.

[Nystagmite]

would this mean that whoever carries out the treatment will have to have access to your medical records? Because they'll need to know what treatment you've had, what treatment you're having, etc.

 

I won't be surprised if they then force the same on us with learning disabilities and physical disabilities. Except, every consultant and GP I've encountereed in relation to my disabilities, has told me I'm incurable.

[Guest]

MIND are against this and have made comment on their website and there is info about it also via their facebook page.

[Nystagmite]

http://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/new-proposals-forcing-people-to-seek-treatment-are-inappropriate/#.U8PferE9GeM

[fletch70]

Mat

Have you applied for ESA?

It's all about filling in the form and how you are at the WCA . 4up on facebook is a great resource

 

It must be a chore to worry about going away , sure it's not excitement

[essexmat]

Mat

Have you applied for ESA?

It's all about filling in the form and how you are at the WCA . 4up on facebook is a great resource

 

It must be a chore to worry about going away , sure it's not excitement

 

ESA application is on the radar for when I get back - been considering it a while what with one thing and another but never really gone in depth about consequences of coming off JSA and moving to ESA. As for going away, when there I will probably be fine, it is the build up of anxiety and OCD. Just got to try and muddle through as best I can and get on with it. I had the same feelings when away for the weekend last September and got through OK.