@vodafoneuk Stolen phone bill £1,888 , unlimited liability. Vodafone - help ** Settled **

[Peopod]

Hi Veganite,

 

Thanks for your message. Miles Bagnall from the Guardian addressed this issue by saying 'His case (Stephen Jensens) demonstrates the unlimited liability that consumers face in the event their phone is stolen but not reported'. Its not just people who don't realise their phone has been stolen, there will be many occasions when customers just won't be able to report a stolen phone immediately i.e. travelling remotely, injured, mugged/cash/bag etc., It would make complete sense for Vodafone to help reduce this liability but they don't appear to have done anything at all. Mr Jensens case was 3.5 years ago and we're in exactly the same position now.

 

I've already asked for some goodwill given that my son's partner has been with Vodafone for 12 years but I was told it wouldn't be fair to other customers but as you can see, they do waive the full charges for some but not all which is odd again. You've raised an interesting point about why they might not be offering any goodwill.

 

As ever, I appreciate any help and so thanks Veganite.

[Peopod]

Hi George,

 

Thanks for this. Would you happen to know where I can find the rules surrounding PAC codes please?

 

My son had opted into a package called Euro Traveller which gives customers the ability to take their UK Plans with them within certain areas of Europe and so I don't know if this would apply given this particular package? Do you know where I might find any industry info on this please?

 

Thanks George.

 

Peopod

[veganite]

Hi Veganite,

 

Thanks for your message. Miles Bagnall from the Guardian addressed this issue by saying 'His case (Stephen Jensens) demonstrates the unlimited liability that consumers face in the event their phone is stolen but not reported'. Its not just people who don't realise their phone has been stolen, there will be many occasions when customers just won't be able to report a stolen phone immediately i.e. travelling remotely, injured, mugged/cash/bag etc., It would make complete sense for Vodafone to help reduce this liability but they don't appear to have done anything at all. Mr Jensens case was 3.5 years ago and we're in exactly the same position now.

 

I've already asked for some goodwill given that my son's partner has been with Vodafone for 12 years but I was told it wouldn't be fair to other customers but as you can see, they do waive the full charges for some but not all which is odd again. You've raised an interesting point about why they might not be offering any goodwill.

 

As ever, I appreciate any help and so thanks Veganite.

 

hi, i've tried to go a bit of digging around google. i read the Jensen case you write about. you have probably read what much the same sites as myself. but, what i have found interesting is this:

 

[We have offered to reduce the outstanding arrears by 50pc as a gesture of goodwill and would be happy to discuss a payment plan with them./QUOTE]

A 50% reduction, quoted from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/household-bills/8512448/The-8200-cost-of-a-stolen-mobile-phone.html

 

 

The Jensen case you speak about which I have read states:

At Vodafone we have 18.9 million customers, many of whom make international calls. We do alert customers when we become aware of an unusually high spending pattern but there is no automatic barring of calls. Our customers tell us that they do not want us to do this as it can cause great inconvenience. It is the customer's responsibility to tell us when their phone has been lost or stolen. Until we are informed, the customer is responsible for any charges

Quoted from link here: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/dec/18/vodafone-7000-bill-phone-thief

Above states that vodafone do alert their customers when there is an unusually high spending pattern but there is no automatic barring of calls, this is in my opinion a failure on behalf of Vodafone in their duty of care to that of the customer.

After all, your bank would certainly block your bank card if its systems triggered an unusually high spending pattern - I feel the same should be reflected by mobile phone companies.

 

You've probably read this article here: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/aug/05/vodafone-stolen-sim-cards

That article states the following:

...you would be better off going to the small claims court and arguing that Vodafone failed in its duty of care to you.

 

If you do go to court, Vodafone would probably not contest the case as it would not want a precedent to be set. The status quo suits the phone companies as all the liability rests with the consumer. It will require a strong stance, as you will be bombarded by debt collectors.

 

From what you have wrote, it is clear that Vodafone are intent on making a profit in respect of the stolen calls. They could have offered the calls at wholesale price (as I said earlier) as this would not cause them a financial loss, but their stance seems to be that they MUST make a profit - even if that profit comes from making a long term customer dissatisfied with their business practice, the profit coming from stolen phone calls.

 

For a company as large as Vodafone to be seen making a profit from a customers phone which was stolen is totally wrong. Unfortunately, from reading the comments in your thread and learning that Vodafone will not answer your complaint further, then the only option I see available to you is legal action against them, which is more or less outlined in the last link above.

[ashmk]

Looking at it from Vodafone's point of view, if the customer had bothered to put a pass-code and sim lock on their phone none of this could have happened.

 

Somebody needs to pay, I don't see why it should be Vodafone, they have done nothing wrong.

[biggeorge]

Hi Peopod, link below for ofcom regarding the PAC code.

 

http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/telephone/refuse_PAC

 

George

[Peopod]

Hi Ash,

 

There was a code. They are hacking into national security and have been for some years, these people are very clever and have means to do almost anything by the looks of it.

[Peopod]

Hi Peopod, link below for ofcom regarding the PAC code.

 

http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/telephone/refuse_PAC

 

George

 

Thanks George

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi Peopod,

 

I appreciate that you remain unhappy.

 

However, as our Customer Relations department have confirmed that the situation is now in deadlock, the next step in our complaints procedure would be for your son and his partner to contact the Ombudsman.

 

If you'd like me to make sure that the account has been placed on hold to allow your son time to decide how he'd like to proceed, ask him to email me with his details via the Contact us form here and quote the code WRT135 - CAG Forum in the subject line.

 

Once sent, he'll receive an automated reply with a reference number. Post back with this and I’ll check I've received it.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

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Vodafone UK

[Peopod]

Hi Lee,

 

Thanks for this, I'm pretty desperate to resolve this as my son is in the military and is going away shortly for a few months. He won't have access to the outside world for quite some time and so if we don't resolve this, it'll be very stressful for him.

 

The account was on hold until next Wednesday but if you could extend that please, I'd be very grateful. Unfortunately my son won't be able to contact you at this time, due to training, but I will contact you via the route above if that is ok please?

 

Other than the Ombudsman or the national press, is there anyway Vodafone and I can just talk sensibly please?

 

Thanks Lee,

 

Peopod

[veganite]

Looking at it from Vodafone's point of view, if the customer had bothered to put a pass-code and sim lock on their phone none of this could have happened.

 

Somebody needs to pay, I don't see why it should be Vodafone, they have done nothing wrong.

 

The OP said there was a code. Besides, such codes are easily bypassed.

 

As for you saying Vodafone has done nothing wrong, I would disagree with this. Vodafone have a duty of care to their customer. The duty of care in this instance would be to block the phone when it has reached a certain limit. It can be seen that Vodafone are intent on making a profit from the stolen calls since they don't offer the calls at wholesale price to their customer, instead, they are demanding the full price paid therefore making a profit from the theft. This does seem standard practice not only with vodafone but also with other networks.

 

Mobile networks respond with the argument that they can not always provide a duty of care in respect of mobile phone bills whilst abroad since they are unable to monitor the exact value of the calls as it is not updated daily. I find this to be a very feeble excuse since if the phone was a Pay As You Go, then as soon as that credit is used abroad you would need to topup... Contract phones can not be monitored in respect of call charges, yet Pay As You Go phones can!

[Peopod]

Hi Peopod

 

The following bit is important, Vodafone have admitted that they don't receive call information straight away from the overseas network provider, so Vodafone couldn't inform your son straight away. In the T & C's does it state anywhere that your 'Text Alert' would not be immediate and that their would be a delay? They've given your son the impression, that the Euro Traveller operates pretty much the same as his existing UK plan where 'Text Alerts' were immediate, so they have omitted essential information on the sale of the Euro Traveller Plan. Would your son have gone for the Euro Traveller Plan if he knew the alerts weren't instantaneous? Nobody from Vodafone told him that would be the case.

 

'I don't understand this as they've confirmed they sent my son a text to alert him

he was about to exceed his UK Plan

- his partner (the main account holder of 12 years) had opted him into a package called Euro Traveller

allowing customers to use their UK Plans when in Europe,

it sends an alert text if a customer exceed their plan. '

 

Hi Rebel11.

 

I've looked at the Euro Package T/C's and info again and it says:

 

Keep track of your account while you're there, with the My Vodafone app

If you get close to your data limit, we’ll send you a text to let you know. Just like when you’re in the UK.

 

I called Vodafone again this morning and they confirmed that the text includes calls. To be on the safe side I asked them to go through the bill again and they confirmed that the data allowance wasn't exceeded and so the text must have been about calls. Text are unlimited and so don't count.

 

Here are the 'Please be Aware'

 

Please be aware

There is no minimum commitment but by opting in to Vodafone EuroTraveller you are opting out of any other European offers on your account or price plan and Vodafone Data Traveller. You can’t opt back into Data Traveller at a later date. You'll also be opting out of the European monthly data spend cap. If you opt out of Vodafone EuroTraveller you’ll be charged our standard Europe zone rates when you travel abroad.

Use of Vodafone EuroTraveller is subject to these terms, our Airtime Conditions, and price plan charges guide. We may vary or amend these terms, but if it's to your disadvantage we'll notify you. For more details about Vodafone EuroTraveller visit http://www.vodafone.co.uk/eurotraveller.

 

Any of this make any sense? I"m becoming lost in it all!

[Peopod]

The OP said there was a code. Besides, such codes are easily bypassed.

 

As for you saying Vodafone has done nothing wrong, I would disagree with this. Vodafone have a duty of care to their customer. The duty of care in this instance would be to block the phone when it has reached a certain limit. It can be seen that Vodafone are intent on making a profit from the stolen calls since they don't offer the calls at wholesale price to their customer, instead, they are demanding the full price paid therefore making a profit from the theft. This does seem standard practice not only with vodafone but also with other networks.

 

Mobile networks respond with the argument that they can not always provide a duty of care in respect of mobile phone bills whilst abroad since they are unable to monitor the exact value of the calls as it is not updated daily. I find this to be a very feeble excuse since if the phone was a Pay As You Go, then as soon as that credit is used abroad you would need to topup... Contract phones can not be monitored in respect of call charges, yet Pay As You Go phones can!

 

Hi again, Vodafone have confirmed again today they send a text which includes calls, to customers with the Euro Traveller Package who are about to exceed their UK Plan. My sons UK Plan/calls was exceeded at 10.16 am (just 6 days into a new billing month), Vodafone sent a text at 12.19 to alert him - so a minor delay but nothing like days. My sons usual bill is around £26 per Vodafone. 6 days in to a new month, he'd exceeded his call limit, that seems like very unusual behaviour for someone who only spends £26 even in the UK. Vodafone told me that they couldn't always see unusual behaviour re the delay from the overseas but if they sent a text, in our case with a 2 hours delay, it would seem they could be on to it pretty quickly?

 

Thanks

[fletch70]

Although I can understand why you are upset I really do not see why you talk about Vodafone having a duty of care. I hate the nanny state and as such believe if you live by the sword you die by it as well.

If Lee had known about this before it reached deadlock maybe he could have helped, maybe not but right now all he can do is advise you of the next step. It is not impossible to get defaults removed and I suspect even easier now since the Durkin case.

 

Have you thought about claiming on your sons travel insurance?

 

Also as for the quote from BF about Barcelona , I wonder why they did not visit the british consulate?

[veganite]

Re the ombudsman, the article from this link http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/aug/05/vodafone-stolen-sim-cards states:

Sadly, this will have been a complete waste of time because the ombudsman admitted to us this week that it has no powers to intervene in cases such as these. It can only do so where a phone company breaches its contractual obligations, which in these cases it hasn't.

 

Whilst Vodafone have not breached their contractual obligations, IMO they have not shown a duty of care. The duty of care should have been to confirm whether the calls were genuine or not, - whether phone was stolen or not.

 

From the same article above, I feel the only way this can be rectified is through court - showing that Vodafone failed in its duty of care to you. Since Vodafone are refusing to discuss this matter with you and the Ombudsman can not deal with matters such as this, then I feel that legal action is the only way this can now be resolved.

 

The bank has a duty of care to its customers - eg, the bank would stop unusually high spending on a card (this has happened to me several times) Also, the bank needs to be informed what country I am in so that I can use my card. If the bank failed in their duty of care, then the bank would be liable for any financial loss. Whilst Vodafone have not failed in their contractual obligations, I believe they have failed in their duty of care - especially since they sent the text you state above.

 

There seems to be absolutely no point in Vodafone sending a text to alert the customer they have exceeded their usual bill and apart from the text no other action is taken.

[Peopod]

Hi Fletch70,

 

Thanks for your message. Veganite quoted duty of care earlier and made some good points. Do you consider the banks behaviour in blocking cards overseas which have unusual behaviour to be part of the nanny state? Would you be annoyed if they blocked your card in such circumstances? I don't think this can fall under the heading of 'nanny state', I think its about a common sense approach to stopping thieves making money out of the hard working people and how companies and their customers can work together to try and reduce this massive issue.

 

Yes I did wonder if I could have engaged Lee earlier, he might have been able to help me. To be honest, I don't know how it went to deadlock, I'd asked for it to be escalated but was told the outcome would be the same regardless. It was and they promptly put the account into deadlock.

 

Re travel insurance, yes, although at present we've just received proof of blocking as it seems the handset was initially blocked and then unblocked. The insurance won't pay out until you have this proof. Because of the confusion it's taken until now (from May) to get hold of this. We have it now, and so can get on with the claim.

[Peopod]

Hi Lee,

 

Quick question, can you please provide me with the name of your mobile partner in Spain please, the one my sons calls would have gone through please.

 

Thanks Lee,

 

Peopod

[fletch70]

Hi Peopod

In answer to your question. If my bank required me to tell them i was abroad and i hadn't i would feel they were justified in blocking my card. If i had told them and was using it where i said i was going the i would be annoyed.

I am glad your son had the sense to take out insurance. Sadly so many people don't.

I think there may be Vodafone ES maybe you could Google it

[veganite]

hi peopod,

If you are going to attempt to get the bill cancelled or heavily reduced using the duty of care angle, then I wonder if any of the calls made to Estonia are premium numbers? you mention premium numbers in your earlier post.

If premium numbers, then I feel that this would add more weight to the argument, - although not necessary.

 

Below link is premium phone numbers for Estonia

http://www.openaccesstelecom.com/wp-contentuploads201106test-numbers-1650-pdf

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi Lee,

 

Thanks for this, I'm pretty desperate to resolve this as my son is in the military and is going away shortly for a few months. He won't have access to the outside world for quite some time and so if we don't resolve this, it'll be very stressful for him.

 

The account was on hold until next Wednesday but if you could extend that please, I'd be very grateful. Unfortunately my son won't be able to contact you at this time, due to training, but I will contact you via the route above if that is ok please?

 

Other than the Ombudsman or the national press, is there anyway Vodafone and I can just talk sensibly please?

 

Thanks Lee,

 

Peopod

 

Hi Peopod,

 

Once I've got your email I'll get back to you as soon as possible.

 

In regard to the dispute, the next step would be to contact the Ombudsman.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

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Vodafone UK

[Peopod]

Hi Lee,

 

Thanks for your message. I sent the email yesterday as you advised.

 

I called Vodafone again yesterday to ask what the text said which was sent to my son when his UK Plan was exceeded. This is what it said 'You have reached your Euro Traveller Allowance and your service is temporarily suspended. If you wish to reopen the line again, call 191 ...'

 

The text was sent at 12.19 on the 10th May per Vodafone. I've just checked the itemised bill and at 12.18 there was a call in progress to an Estonia number, it lasted 17m.8s, taking the time to 12.35. At 12.35 the same number was dialled and lasted 0m 5s. This was followed at 12.35 by another call to the same number which lasted 15m 50s. This was followed by another call at 12.51 and so it goes on.

 

If the line was suspended, it wasn't at 12.19 as we can see from the bill. Also it means that if it was suspended, the thief wouldn't have had time to call 191 re the pattern of calls and the rapid dialling patterns. The other issue is that they wouldn't have got through your security anyway and so its looking likely that the line wasn't suspended.

 

In addition, having just gone through all of the calls, I've spotted something very odd: There are multiple calls to the same Estonia number, all at the same time:

 

- 12.01hrs 16m 39s cost 5.50

- 12.01hrs 17m 1s cost 5.67

- 12.18hrs 17m 8s cost 5.712

- 12.18hrs 16m 28s cost 5.48

- 12.35hrs15m 50s cost 5.41

- 12.35hrs 6m14s cot 2.20

 

This is the pattern throughout the bill. Also, I just noticed that although the majority of calls were to Estonia, there are some to Pakistan, Austria and Spain.

 

How can one phone/sim dial the same number at the same time whilst having up to 17 minutes per call please?

 

Just as odd is that the agent yesterday said we would now be passed onto the 'Bill shock' team, when asked why this was just happening, the agent said that Vodafone wanted to be sure that we were being billed correctly. If this is the case, why hasn't someone from Vodafone picked this up please?

 

Thanks Lee,

 

Peopod.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Peopod

[Peopod]

Hi Veganite,

 

Thanks for your help. Just looked at your link to check and can now see that not all of the calls were to Estonia, although the majority were. Other countries: Pakistan, Austria and Spain. Very helpful, Veganite, thanks for this, I'd missed it.

[rebel11]

Hi Peopod

 

Could the sim card have been cloned? That is the only way I think that is possible. That is staggering and the CEO's Executive Team won't talk to you. There Euro- Traveller Plan is flawed, pre and post sale. Well Done on finding the other calls.

[Peopod]

HI, I don't know is the answer. Can they clone sim cards? Also, thanks to Veganite, I can now see that they called Pakistan, Austria and Spain. Not sure why this hasn't been picked up by Vodafone when they checked the bill.

 

Re the Directors' Team - very odd behaviour I agree. Will just keep on going. I'm finding the help on the site fantastic, so much knowledge out there and people happy to share and help.

[sequenci]

Modern mobiles can dial more than one person at any given time via a conference call facility that most networks allow for, sadly. It's quite common for this to happen with stolen phones.

[rebel11]

http://help.vodafone.co.uk/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1000&PARTITION_ID=1&CMD=BROWSE_TOPIC&USERTYPE=1&LANGUAGE=en&COUNTRY=us&TOPIC_ID=239669&PARENT_TOPIC_ID=239693&SOURCE_FORM=TOPIC_TREE&DISPLAY=SUBTOPICARTICLES&ARTICLE_ID=2978