JBW Group / Council Tax

[brooksby]

Good afternoon,

 

Hopefully someone can give me some guidance at what i can do to resolve a matter i have with JBW group. On the 25/03/14 i received a letter to my address that stated I owed £354 to the London Borough of Bromley for council tax. I contacted JBW via email and asked what and when this was related to, They responded giving me the address of the property and the time period which dates back to 2003. I advised JBW that i don't know anything about this debt and was not at the property at the time the outstanding amount it for.They replied with the following

 

"Dear Mr James,

 

It is down to yourself to provide evidence of this to the issuing authority if you claim that you are not liable as a liability order has been issued against you.

Best regards,

JBW Group."

 

I do not have any information going back nearly 11 that shows i didn't live at that address at the time so I sent them the following

 

"Dear Sir/Madam

 

Ref: 2171642

 

You have contacted me regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself.

 

I would point out that I have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to London Borough of Bromley.

 

I am familiar with the ‘Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance’ which states that it is unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

I would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

 

Furthermore, ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above accounts unless you can provide evidence as to our liability for the debt in question.

 

I await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise we will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

 

We look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Mr James"

 

They have responded with

 

"Dear Mr James,

 

JBW have a liability order that has issued you as the liable party. If you wish to obtain a copy of this, please request this from London Borough of Bromley.

 

JBW will not be ceasing enforcement as we have been instructed by London Borough of Bromley and work under the authority of a liability order.

 

We again reiterate, if you claim you are not liable please provide evidence of this as the onus is on you to provide this.

Best regards,

JBW Group."

 

If I cannot prove that I was not at the address at the time what do I do? I have no paperwork going back 11 years for anything.

 

Any advice would be welcomed.

 

Thank you

 

David

[brassnecked]

I think this one needs moving to the bailiff forum, as unless JBW have done a faulty trace and it is a different Mr James they have the LO against, you will have to take it seriously JBW WILL enforce even in the absence of proof of you owing the money. They are bailiffs and not a DCA you can fob off You could swear a Stat dec as to you were not resident at that address but were at wherever else you lived and send that to the issuing council and JBW. It is up to them to prove you are the named debtor, but better if you can prove you are not as a LO will not go away, it follows even unto the grave.

 

JBW are a nasty bunch and will take and sell your car at the first opportunity so park it well away so they don't get the reg number for now.

[brooksby]

Ok, Thank you for your reply. Do you think it is worth me contacting the local authority and asking them to provide any documentation that relates to that property?. i just don't know what to do without any documentation to say I wasn't at the address at the time of they are claiming. Its basically their word against mine.

[brassnecked]

If you were not resident a Stat Dec is proof as it is a sworn affadavit, Are you sure you cannot remember your addreess at that time?

 

I think this thread should be transferred to the bailiff forum for more targeted advice as JBW are most definitely NOT a DCA

[brooksby]

I remember my address just dont have any proof of it. I moved back to my parents address at the time

[Staraker]

If it was the case that you previously lived at the address, how much of a gap is there between you moving back to your parents and the time period of the demand? Do you not have bank or other statements sent to your parent's address that date from the disputed time period?

 

You don't say what type of property it was, or the nature of your occupation (if you rented, would you be able to get proof from the landlord?), but looking at Bromley's Band D CT for 2002-03 and 2003-04 suggests the £354 they're asking for is around a few months' worth, assuming a single occupancy discount. If the CT was in your name, did you not inform the council when you vacated the property?

[brooksby]

I don't have details for the Landlord any more. The property was privately rented and I had contact details for him at the time but I no longer have any details for him, he moved to Ireland where he was originally from buts that all I know. I didn't inform Bromley Council that I was leaving the property but had to show the landlord that the council tax was up to date and paid before we completed the end of the tenancy. The time period for the amount being claimed is 1 Apr 2003- 30 July 2003. I have no proof that I was not here, I dont have any documentation going that far back for anything let alone council tax. I wrote to JBW again after receiving another letter which stated they were preparing a case to return the matter back to the magistrates court with a recommendation of imprisonment.

 

Good morning

 

Thank you for your response,

 

I am eager to resolve this as soon as possible but find it difficult providing evidence that I never lived at the property at the time London Borough of Bromley claim I was there. I have asked you twice now on how I get this resolved without any evidence that I never lived at the address 11 years ago at this time but you keep repeating yourselves and telling me the onus is on me to prove was not at the property at the time. I have explained I have no proof of this and have asked knowing there is no proof how can I get this resolved but you then repeat that I need to prove I was not there at the time. How do I resolve this without the proof is what I'm asking?.

 

My first knowledge of this alleged outstanding balance is when I received a letter from your company on the 25/03/14, since then I have been in constant contact with you in order to attempt to get this matter resolved however I returned home from work yesterday to find I have received a further letter from yourselves which quotes;

 

"You have ignored numerous opportunities to clear your arrears by instalments which has given us the grounds for our recommendations.

 

I have not ignored the matter at all but have tried To deal with this promptly after I received the initial letter on the 25/03/14, I have been in constant contact with your company to try and resolve the matter with the first contact date being made by myself to you on 26/03/14.

 

You also states in your letter that an application will be made to the Magistrates court due to Wilful refusal to pay and / or Culpable Neglect. I have not wilfully refused to pay nor have I neglected the situation but I claim I was not at the property at the time when Bromley Council claim.

 

Please please please could you give me some guidance on what I need to do to get this matter resolved. Who do I need to speak to? Do you have contact details for Bromley Council that I could look into this matter? etc.

 

I look forward from hearing for you.

 

Thanks

 

Mr James.

 

They responded by asking me to contact anyone that could prove i was not at the property at that time and they really couldn't recommend who to talk to as each case is different.

 

I just want to get it resolved but I feel were just going around in circles.

[Staraker]

Have you clearly stated to JBW the date on which you vacated the property? The way you've worded it in your posts could be taken as a claim that you never lived there at all. As others have suggested, you really should be speaking to Bromley about this as soon as possible, explaining the exact circumstances, because it sounds like the landlord didn't transfer the CT into their own name when you left, although you really should have told them you were leaving yourself. Presumably you can still name the landlord, even if they are no longer in the country? Land Registry records should back up who actually owned the property at the time*. As has been said, you'll probably have to go down the route of a Statutory Declaration if you really don't have any documentary evidence of your address change (e.g. bank or employment records, utility bills, etc.).

 

* If you put the address into one of the historic house price websites, you should be able to work out if the property has been sold since you moved out.

[brooksby]

Thank you for your response. I contacted them again and yes i have clearly stated the date that i was not at the property. I have contacted them and asked them what i should do in order to resolve this but again they come back with to find proof and are not giving me any directions on how to resolve it. The last contact I had from them was on Thursday then yesterday i received a letter saying i hadn't been in touch and that I have 7 days from the date of the letter to make a payment otherwise a repossession order would be issued and i would have to pay £235 on top of what is outstanding. The date on the letter was the 1/04/14 and I received it yesterday 06/04/13 which gives me only a day to sort it. When i spoke to them on Thursday I told them i would be contacting the council but now they are pushing me without giving me time to try and resolve it. Any help would be appreciated.

[Staraker]

Thank you for your response. I contacted them again and yes i have clearly stated the date that i was not at the property. I have contacted them and asked them what i should do in order to resolve this but again they come back with to find proof and are not giving me any directions on how to resolve it. The last contact I had from them was on Thursday then yesterday i received a letter saying i hadn't been in touch and that I have 7 days from the date of the letter to make a payment otherwise a repossession order would be issued and i would have to pay £235 on top of what is outstanding. The date on the letter was the 1/04/14 and I received it yesterday 06/04/13 which gives me only a day to sort it. When i spoke to them on Thursday I told them i would be contacting the council but now they are pushing me without giving me time to try and resolve it. Any help would be appreciated.

So they dated a letter for last Tuesday, but it didn't arrive until Saturday, and want payment by tomorrow? Clearly unreasonable.

 

Have you spoke to Bromley yet? This page on the Bromley website deals with liability orders - it looks like a large chunk of what is being asked for is charges relating to the LO, rather than the supposed CT arrears themselves.

[brooksby]

I've just got off the phone to Bromley and i must say it wasn't the nicest call i have ever had.

 

Here's my transcript of the conversation

 

DJ = Me

 

Spoke to someone named Rob, Rob refused to give surname, agent id or any call Reference. DJ advised I was not at the property at the time the when Bromley claim that I was there, DJ advised that I had been approached by JBW Bailiffs in regards to the outstanding balance and had at least 10 email conversations with them with the last letter received from them advising they will be taking goods the letter states from the 6th Apr The taking goods act will be implemented. DJ advised that JBW advised that I need to prove I was not at the property at the time but the debt is over 11 years ago and I don’t have any information regarding my whereabouts as I moved in with my father and all the bills was in his name. Rob advised that it is up to me to prove that I wasn't there, DJ asked how I could prove it?, DJ advised that I was in prison at the time from 2002 – 2003 but that’s not the time that the bailiff’s are claiming fo they are claiming shortly afterwardsr. Rob advised that’s just the part that’s been given to them, there’s also another part totally over £600 that is outstanding between David James (Me) & Mr A Duffly (Ex House mate). Rob asked DJ to get in contact with A Duffy, DJ advised that I’m no longer in contact with him and have no contact info, Rob told me to try and find him on Facebook or Twitter. Rob advised that the period for the other £600 is in 2002 so if I had something from the prison to say I was there it would cancel out some of this. DJ advised that I would need time to sort this out and I would need them to put a stop to the bailiff’s why it was being investigated, ROB advised he cant do this and I have had long enough to deal with it, DJ advised that I received the first letter on the 26/03/14 which was the first time I was notified, ROB advised the cancel has been writing to me for years to get it resolved, DJ asked to what address, Rob advised to the originating address and confirmed 13 High Street Bromley, DJ advised I haven’t lived at the address for years and this is the address where i am disputing where i wasn't and that's the address the correspondence was going to . Rob advised to make a payment to the council and the bailiffs why it’s getting investigated and claim the money back, DJ proposed £1 per month whilst the investigation continues, Rob declined and said it could only be split over 6 payments so would require £115 PCM, DJ declined. DJ told Rob that I didn't live at the address at the time and needed time to sort it out which he could not give and would not tell the bailiff’s to stop any action and was up to me to provide information. Rob started to get aggressive. DJ asked to speak to his manager, Rob declined advised he can’t do that, DJ asked if the call was recorded Rob advised it is not. DJ asked if I wanted to speak to someone to make an official complainant then how do I go about it, Rob advised to put it in writing, DJ advised I need to sort it now due to further action that’s about to take place from the Bailiffs and that I needed to speak to a manager, Rob said that I can request a call back from a manager within 24 hours and the manager would listen to the call and then call me back, DJ advised listen? I thought the calls were not recorded, Rob said they are not but they are errr only internally err no only on the notes DJ requested a call back Rob advised ok but it’s not guaranteed ,DJ advised that you (Rob) just told me in order to speak to a manager I would need to request a 24 hour call back, DJ asked can I come down and speak to someone face to face to resolve the matter quickly, Rob advised yes but no appointments are available until the end of April, DJ advised I need to sort this out asap, Rob advised there is nothing he could do, DJ requested to speak to his manager again but rob declined advised he can’t do that I would need to request a call, DJ requested a manager call me back on my mobile (Rob then cut me off)

 

End of conversation.

 

Guys I'm trying to sort this out but I'm not being given enough time to try and find evidence from 11 years ago. I have spoken to the Prison but that cant provide me evidence over the phone, I need to request the information in writing, the prison service game me an address to write to. But again this will take time. What do I do?

[Ros1609]

Write to the prison and copy in Bromley Council and the bailiff company. It at least evidences you are attempting to get proof

[brooksby]

Write to the prison and copy in Bromley Council and the bailiff company. It at least evidences you are attempting to get proof

 

Thank you for your response. I have requested this information but the bailiffs or council are not giving me any time. A Bailiff turned up at my house today to impose a further charge of £235.

 

Can anyone clarify if the following is correct

 

If I moved from the property longer than 6 years ago and the bailiff is collecting a council tax bill from over 6 years ago and the liability order is made out to my old address than under Section 23 and Section 33 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

or Section 2 of the Limitation Act 1980 The council tax debt dies.

 

The liability order cannot be used to recover a debt at a different address than the one shown. A fresh liability order cannot be granted for a council tax liability that is more than six years old.

[brooksby]

Quick update. - I won the case.

[po55]

Sorry to jump this post seeking help with jbw and I'm unable to make new thread . Can anyone help pls

[brassnecked]

Sorry to jump this post seeking help with jbw and I'm unable to make new thread . Can anyone help pls

 

you could use this thread I started

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168

[po55]

Thank you