Unfair Dismissal, Race Discrimination, Preg/sex discrimination - ** SETTLED **

[panxa]

ETs don't really exist to punish the "bad guys". Go to your local court and watch some before you make your decision.

Foolish of me then.

[smokejumper]

Which seams somewhat strange to me, as a law is broken then they should be punished, otherwise there is no deterrent.

[steampowered]

In the legal system, it is generally seen as the role of criminal law to act as a deterrent. Civil law (including employment law) generally only compensates the loss which has been suffered by the claimant and nothing more. This is basically true though not 100% true (the modest basic award element of unfair dismissal compensation, and I think very often the injury to feelings aspect of discrimination awards, go beyond loss suffered).

 

The Op has already been offered 5k to settle, equivalent to about 4 months' wages. I think this would generally be seen as quite a high starting offer in the circumstances. I have seen a case which is not dissimilar to this one (young girl worked for a few months at a cafe, dismissed for being pregnant) settle for 500 although that was low. I do think the op should seriously consider the 5k offer and potentially trying to negotiate them upward, depending on how her calculations for an unfair dismissal award come out (I think there is a possibility of a discrimination injury to feelings award here but it would be at the bottom end of the Venti scale).

[smokejumper]

As I said strange system, this compensation seems low to me, considering the racism part and that someone got £35000, because there hands were too small to hold a firearm ;-)

[steampowered]

The median award (i.e. average) award for unfair dismissal in 2012-13 was £4,832. Similar for race and sex discrimination. The larger judgments get more publicity but not the norm.

 

There is guidance on how to quantify discrimination losses here - http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/work_w/work_problems_at_work_e/et_employment_tribunals_from_29_july_2013_e/et_valuing_a_claim_e/et_compensation_for_discrimination_e/et60_discrimination_calculating_compensation_for_injury_to_feelings.htm

 

As the Op was getting paid less than average, any unfair dismissal award would also likely be less than average. As the discrimination aspect appears minor and does not appear to be linked to the dismissal I think any award would be at the bottom end of the lower band.

 

 

The possible wildcard here is loss of SMP but proper calculations need to be done.

[panxa]

HI Emmzi,

 

I Have witness statements from 2 colleagues and I have the very first email to my manager where I made clear that al the mocking and reapeating back words at me was hurtful and offencife, which he then acknowledge.

I also have print outs of Instant messaging conversations( date and time in them) where was telling my colleague exactly what was happening at the time of being mocked (this is not a one off this, it continued through out October to December, too many times to mention) the IM messages show exactly how they were saying:* Panxa* go and say Lush for us ( lush as in the soap shop) I would say it and they will laugh and say "oh you speak funny" (Emmzzi, this is one example) but you get the idea, everything else was along the same lines, different words, same exact way to make fun of my accent( Although I have been in this country many many years, my Accent is very strong and I cannot change it, it highlights me very much) Can I also say, I was the Only foreigner to be working in the department at the time.

 

Thanks for reading again

[Emmzzi]

Have a read of the comments above by the guys on what a court might award you. Useful information.

[panxa]

The median award (i.e. average) award for unfair dismissal in 2012-13 was £4,832. Similar for race and sex discrimination. The larger judgments get more publicity but not the norm.

 

There is guidance on how to quantify discrimination losses here - http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/work_w/work_problems_at_work_e/et_employment_tribunals_from_29_july_2013_e/et_valuing_a_claim_e/et_compensation_for_discrimination_e/et60_discrimination_calculating_compensation_for_injury_to_feelings.htm

 

As the Op was getting paid less than average, any unfair dismissal award would also likely be less than average. As the discrimination aspect appears minor and does not appear to be linked to the dismissal I think any award would be at the bottom end of the lower band.

 

 

The possible wildcard here is loss of SMP but proper calculations need to be done.

 

Hi SP,

 

Thank you for mentioning Venti award scale, In the past I have been told I was in middle band, because not only racist discrimination but also because of being pregnant during a protective period? So it surprises me what your venti quote is.

 

Also, Can I just say how do you identify the racist element of the claim as *Minor*? does that mean that my colleagues should of continued mock my accent on a weekly basis even if I continued employment, my grivance was never carried out by my manager and so is it justifiable?

 

Please define Racism to me.

In my view, acts that have made to ridicule someone based on their characteristics of race ie: skin color, culture, beliefs, religion, costumes, accents, language, etc. and any treatment that has been made in contempt is deemed as Racist.

 

Also, Can I ask someone here please, (guys, you have been so helpful)

I had a meeting with my CAB employment adviser yesterday and I made her aware of news about my ex employer. Apparently the Department I was working for(which is an independent company and the my employer was only doing the employing side of things for the although under the same roof) have been taken over by another financial company on the 2nd of Feb. Now, my ex colleagues belong to a different organisation altogether. does that make any difference to my claim? My adviser seems to think that I should write to ET and ask to amend the ET1 and include the new company for liability too because my ex employees are there, is he right?

 

Please help me on that one:D

[panxa]

Hi P

 

 

Sorry to read about your predicament, I have read briefly your issues of concern and it is NOT LOOKING GOOD !!

 

 

First of all forget settlement that is not going to happen.DO NOT TRUST ACAS , how ever sweet sounding they may come across, it is not easy to represent yourself especially in a discrimination case which last for more than a day.

 

Have you issued The discrimination questionnaire rr65??

Tell us which town the main tribunal is going to be held at?[roughly]

How big is the company that you worked for?

 

The above are all relevant questions prior to giving proper advice.

 

 

Hi Madari,

 

This predicament has cost me, my husband and kids sleepless nights I would love it for it to disappear!

 

I can tell you that the company in question has got significant operation offices around the UK, the US and across Asia, its currently sitting in the FTSE 100, so we are not talking about a hairdressing shop in a west sussex village.

 

The CMD and all future hearing will take in Glasgow, the only ET tribunal in Scotland.

 

What are you thoughts in all this? Can I ask you if in the case of my ex employer of being liable for unfair dismissal, where would that put my unfair dismissal on the basis of pregnancy? would that be awarded/considered separately? I know that dismissing someone for being pregnant is automatically unfair.

 

Please help on that one, Im very confused.com

 

Ta!

[panxa]

and can I thank everyone so far in all the advise you have giving me so far. I have never used forums before, but \i know behing keyboards there is real people that wish to help.

thanks again

[panxa]

Have a read of the comments above by the guys on what a court might award you. Useful information.

 

aye, I have, thats why it surprises me SP response of bottom venti, CAB told me Middle Venti. Am I getting confused somewhere? Im not talking about a one off racial inciddent, it was continuous even tho I raised a grievance that was never carried out until after my dismissal.

[panxa]

Which seams somewhat strange to me, as a law is broken then they should be punished, otherwise there is no deterrent.

 

Potentialy my ex employer would of continued with the racial incidents if I continued to be employed by them. I don't want punishment, there should be awareness. No bullying should be justfied.

[steampowered]

Hi SP,

 

Thank you for mentioning Venti award scale, In the past I have been told I was in middle band, because not only racist discrimination but also because of being pregnant during a protective period? So it surprises me what your venti quote is.

 

Also, Can I just say how do you identify the racist element of the claim as *Minor*? does that mean that my colleagues should of continued mock my accent on a weekly basis even if I continued employment, my grivance was never carried out by my manager and so is it justifiable?

The award is based on the severity of the discrimination. The top band of vento is designed for lengthy, sustained campaigns of harassment. The middle band is for serious cases which do not fall wtihin the top band. The lower band is for less serious cases. In my view the incidents you have described are a less serious case.

 

There is no hard science here but there is plenty of case law you can read to give yourself an idea. For example have a read of Vento itself at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2002/1871.html which contains a few summaries of previous awards.

 

If we are talking about being dismissed due to being pregnant, that is more serious and could arguably be middle band. However I think you will struggle to prove that as it doesn't sound like the employer would have much trouble proving the dismissal was made for (alleged) immigration reasons rather than discriminatory reasons.

Please define Racism to me.

Race is defined specifically by the Equality Act 2010 to cover colour, nationality and ethnic or national origins.

Also, Can I ask someone here please, (guys, you have been so helpful)

I had a meeting with my CAB employment adviser yesterday and I made her aware of news about my ex employer. Apparently the Department I was working for(which is an independent company and the my employer was only doing the employing side of things for the although under the same roof) have been taken over by another financial company on the 2nd of Feb. Now, my ex colleagues belong to a different organisation altogether. does that make any difference to my claim? My adviser seems to think that I should write to ET and ask to amend the ET1 and include the new company for liability too because my ex employees are there, is he right?

 

Please help me on that one:D

 

No, I don't think this is right. While the other employees may have been TUPEd across I don't think this would mean your claim also moves across. I think your claim would be against your old employer as you have never had a legal relationship with the new employer.

[panxa]

Thank so. You have clarified a lot and with a good background. Am I right to say there are two types of discrimination, direct and indirect, what are the differences between those 2?

Also, I had enough of this, I'm thinking of taking the 5 k , but their offer for this was only open til 7feb. Can I contact acas? How do I go about it? What should I say?

 

( my reasons are because there are other things in our life atm and I can't and won't have time for ET or preparation)

 

Thanks again.

[steampowered]

Hi, glad the advice you are getting is helpful.

 

Direct discrimination occurs where someone is treated less favourable due to a protected characteristic such as race or gender. Indirect discrimination occurs where a company operates a policy or procedure which on the face of it is neutral, but actually results in discrimination. An example of indirect discrimination would be a dress code which is designed in a way to ensure that Sikh turbans are prohibited. The instances you describe would be categorised as direct discrimination, although to be honest I don't think the characterisation makes much difference.

 

You may contact ACAS in order to facilitate a settlement. You should have been introduced to the mediator assigned to your case already. There is no need to go through ACAS; you may also go through the employer directly. The complication is that a settlement agreed through ACAS is binding; whereas a private settlement is only binding if the employee received independent legal advice on the terms of the settlement (the employer may pay for this if needed to achieve settlement).

 

My personal view is that 5k is actually quite a high offer given the circumstances you described. If your case was successful (and it is an 'if' not a 'when') I'm not sure you would expect to get a great deal more than 5k. In my experience arbitrary deadlines and 'final' offers are very common but can safely be ignored - if you were offered 5k before it is very likely they would offer 5k again if asked, provided they have not incurred huge legal costs preparing for a hearing in the meantime.

 

There is nothing to stop you going back and asking for more. However this should be justified with sound reasons as to why you think you would be awarded more if this went to Tribunal, and that might involve preparing a proper schedule of loss and sending it to the other side. One strategy might be to ask for 6 or 7 and see what they say.

[panxa]

HI everyone,

sorry its me again and im going to pick your brains again...well its a matter of opinion.

I have been offered help from xxx Scotland, anyone has had dealings with them? I know its a no win no fee basis, what are the implications of going and accepting help from such companies?

 

Also, I feel scared of approaching acas, I don't want to appear *desperate*

 

In the meantime, the Respondent has taken 2 weeks to send me their Internal investigation conclusion with regards to my Grivance. what should I do? (I know if they send that Info Tribunals will set a FHD and then costs will go up for the respondent in order to prepare for it) How can I push for it or shall I use their delay against them?

 

 

Thanks Again.

Edited March 5, 2014 by honeybee13
Lawyer name.

[steampowered]

I don't think 2 weeks is an unreasonable timeframe given the nature of the allegations you are making. The important thing is that you don't miss the strict deadline of 3 months minus a day from date of dismissal.

 

I don't understand why you don't want to contact ACAS. Just go ahead and contact them.

[panxa]

I don't think 2 weeks is an unreasonable timeframe given the nature of the allegations you are making. The important thing is that you don't miss the strict deadline of 3 months minus a day from date of dismissal.

 

I don't understand why you don't want to contact ACAS. Just go ahead and contact them.

 

Hi So, the respondent carried out investigations last June and confirmed by letter, 2 weeks ago they managed to confirm to tribunals they had concluded investigation and I was due to hear from them shortly.

I will contact acas and see what they say, I could start the conversation as in like, what is the respondent's position with regards to this investigation? Or something like that( my ex employer confirmed to acas that they didn't want to disclosed this info to tribunals, you wonder why, no light hearted pulling the leg I tell you)

Will NWNF lawyers only take a case if they feel it will win?

Edited March 5, 2014 by honeybee13

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I've removed the lawyer's name from your posts, as we can't recommend individual firms. But to answer your question above, NWNF firms will only represent you if they think you have a chance of winning, a percentage over 50%, but I don't know exactly what %.

 

It's logical really, if they don't win they won't get paid.

 

I agree with Steampowered about contacting ACAS, but please be aware that if you agree to a 'deal' even verbally via ACAS, it's binding.

 

HB

[smokejumper]

I was told 75%, my case had a 70% so they declined.

[honeybee13]

I was told 75%, my case had a 70% so they declined.

 

Thank you for that, useful stuff. Sorry it wasn't good news for you though.

 

HB

[panxa]

Thank you for that, useful stuff. Sorry it wasn't good news for you though.

 

HB

 

If that's the case, I wasted a whole day archiving my paperwork chronologicaly before sending on to them.

[smokejumper]

Why? don't you think it's got a 75% chance of success.

 

As for Acas, I would be interested to know if anyone has actually been happy with their intervention.

[Grotesque]

As for Acas, I would be interested to know if anyone has actually been happy with their intervention.

 

A large number of employers.

[smokejumper]

I guess you are as impressed with them as I am ;-)

 

 

A large number of employers.