Unenforceable agreements under the Consumer Credit Act

[adviser333]

hi everyone i am totally new please help me i have been reading alot on this website i have a debt that has been passed to MARLIN and they say they dont have to produce a cca because i have defaulted and the original agreemnet as been void. is this true they said something about a ruling in court in May 2008? i would appreciate any help in this matter sorry if im butting in

[Viscount Stair]

They mean Rankine vs Amex and others. Most of the judgment flies in the face of case law from higher courts.

 

However, it is less clear to me that the part of the judgment about ss77&78 only applying until the agreement is terminated is not binding, even if it is unhelpful and counter-intuitive. I asked about this a while back in another thread but didn't get any response.

 

Marlin are wrong about the agreement being void though - if it were, they would have nothing to claim on at all. I presume that they meant to say something different.

[Josie8]

The Rankine v Amex and others judgment will be easily distinguishable if a similar case goes to the High Court. The judge found the Rankines to be liars & I think it would be fair to say he stretched the law to ensure that they couldn't suceed................maybe I'm being a wee bit harsh

[Viscount Stair]

The legal euphemism is: "M'lud, Rankine is a case that turns entirely on its own facts".

 

The problem is that, until another case actually does reach the High Court, Rankine will probably remain as the relevant (and very unhelpful) precedent on the ss77&78 point.

[Josie8]

The legal euphemism is: "M'lud, Rankine is a case that turns entirely on its own facts".

 

The problem is that, until another case actually does reach the High Court, Rankine will probably remain as the relevant (and very unhelpful) precedent on the ss77&78 point.

 

 

I believe there are a couple of cases wending their way to the High Court at the moment on this point........ I know of a third where the lender discontinued rather than lose the point

[jillmel]

We have a unregulated secured loan with First Plus financial group, in september they got possession of our property due to legal misrepresentation, we then varied the order to suspended, without any legal aid. Now we have been looking over previous documentation and seems the credit agreement could be unforceable, this is because it states that early settlement will be calculated as per section 78 cca 1974, but then it also says that they are not regulated by them. On official court paper work, they have stated that th e credit agreement is under the consumer credit agreement act - i am right in thinking this info must be provided on the agreement because it isnt, and after reading the unfair terms in consumer contract regulations they seem to have broken nearly everyguideline that has been set out to keep us safe. I phoned the court about this issue and also about lack of correspondance and not carrying out what we have asked them to do in letters, as we are due to have a review hearing soon. What i need is as much ammo as possible before submitting this letter to the court?

 

thanks:p

Edited December 13, 2008 by jillmel

[jillmel]

to add they also served us with a default notice served under section 87(1) of the consumer credit act 1974 - yet they cannot be regulated by them as the loan is over £25000, this was also submitted to the court. Also when looking at the credit agreement against the legal charge it seems our final figure includes not 1 but 2 broker arrangment fees of £750. First plus also attempted to carry out a land search on us with out signed consent from ourselves........i hope we can stick it right up their a##**! if only we noticed these things sooner

[Viscount Stair]

The ins and outs of what is and is not a regulated agreement are beyond my expertise but I can tell you that the land register is now open access and no consent for a search is required.

[jillmel]

The ins and outs of what is and is not a regulated agreement are beyond my expertise but I can tell you that the land register is now open access and no consent for a search is required.

 

 

 

 

Thank you, but when was it made open access because this search occured in oct 2006.

Thanks.

[Viscount Stair]

From memory, it went open access as long ago as 2000.

[jillmel]

Oh ok, thanks, its just on the land registry paper work it shows first plus as being restricted because of no signed consent from the proprietor.

[Viscount Stair]

That is possibly something different.

 

Because a loan from First Plus is secured on the property, something called a restriction will be registered against the title to protect the security.

[jillmel]

thank you, we are going to get some advice on monday but i just need as much information as possible particularly about the credit agreement and documents which contridict the credit agreement being submitted to the court:p

[Viscount Stair]

I hope you get the best advice you can on this.

[babygirl007]

(Quite long I know but please stick with it...could open up a new area for claims...)

 

Hi all. Great site...helped girlfriend claim back £830 from Lloyds TSB and just issued another claim against them today for £490...thanks for all the help/templates/advice. Got an unusual (I think) query this time...

 

Was checking the national debt line site back in April and came across their letters template link (National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice). 2/3rds down the list there is a CCA letter that you can use to request a copy of a credit agreement from your creditors under the CCA (Sections 77-79)...what is interesting about this is that it states that "creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act." This is relevant for my girlfriend as she thought she had come to the end of the term of the loan only to be told that 4 instalments were still outstanding. She has been switched from one loan product to another during the loan term and by Lloyds own admittance is on an "old-style" loan. She sent the CCA letter in April and has heard nothing since...no agreement, no chasers for the money, nothing. Lloyds have however starting to charge interest on the outstanding balance without any notification. Three questions:

 

1) Is the national debtline letter correct?

2) If so, does unenforceable mean that my girlfriend can write to Lloyds to get them to scrub off the outstanding amount?

3) Is Lloyds practice of charging interest in this manner legal (particularly given that they are unable to provide a copy of the credit agreement)?

 

Any views/advice/experiences would be most welcome.

 

Thanks.

 

Stuart

 

Hello Stuart,

 

I am not a solicitor but have been dragged through the courts three times now with debt collection agencies who cannot provide TRUE copies of the original agreements. I have seen three different judges on four different occasions over three debts. Each judge says the same, no agreement, no case! you must write to them asking for them to provide a true copy of the original credit agreement under consumer credit act 1974. Point out to them that if they do not give you this within twelve days there is no case and within twenty eight days they can be prosecuted. YOU MUST enclose £1 statutory fee (they can argue in court that they have not received this and it will adjourn things - so it is best to send it). Also check the things they are sending through.... do signatures match your copy? do credit agreement number tally? have they got the right agreement? The loan number must match yours - your current account number is NOT a loan number and they must have this....

 

To answer your questions: a) yes the letter is correct! i took it into one of my cases and won on their points.

 

b) Your girlfriend could write to Lloyds and see what they say...

 

c) Interest that they are applying will not have to be paid without an agreement. How do you know the rates you signed up to without this? you will not, and, therefore, my understanding is that it is unenforceable. In fact, one judge told me to stop paying totally until an agreement comes into play.

 

Hope this helps.

[Scrapper]

hi the 30 days doesnt matter any more..its now just 12 days for the creditor to go into default

 

Been reading all the threads and all sounds very interesting. Just about to send Barclaycard and MBNA requests, but I'm unclear on the 12 day issue. Is it 12 working days that they have to respond or 12 days from the moment they receive the request?

 

Any help on clearing that issue up would be appreciated

[Viscount Stair]

It's 12 working days from the date on which they receive the request and fee.

 

Post it by recorded delivery, so you can prove 1) that they got it and 2) when they got it.

[Scrapper]

Thanks for the information. Now that I have sent the letters off requestiong details hopefully they won't be able to find the agreements considering I've had the Barclaycard 20yrs and MBNA 15yrs so fingers crossed. If they do produce the details what are the next steps for me to take?

 

Any advice is very much appreciated

 

Cheers

 

Scrapper

[cleo4patra]

Thanks for the information. Now that I have sent the letters off requestiong details hopefully they won't be able to find the agreements considering I've had the Barclaycard 20yrs and MBNA 15yrs so fingers crossed. If they do produce the details what are the next steps for me to take?

 

Any advice is very much appreciated

 

Cheers

 

Scrapper

Hi - if you receive any "agreements" you need to scan them in on this site using "photobucket" making sure you delete all personal details (but make sure you don't do anything to the original) and someone will offer an opinion. Cleo - there is a tutorial to help you do this which I can post when needed

[Scrapper]

Thanks Cleo. I'll let you know what happens and get back to you. Fingers crossed

 

Cheers

 

Scrapper:wink:

[Viscount Stair]

The other factor that is likely to apply in the case of MBNA is that MBNA bought a lot of its accounts from other issuers. MBNA don't seem to have remembered to buy the paperwork with the accounts.

[Scrapper]

Cleo / Viscount

 

Thanks for your help so far. Just a couple more questions:

 

1. Do I have to keep up my payments while waiting for the original agreements to arrive? They have already recieved and signed for the letters I sent.
   
2. They are chasing me by phone for late payment on my accounts and sent letters advsing that default charges and late fees have been to my accounts already. Are they allowed to chase me when they have been given notice to supply me with my agreement?
   

If I have requested a copy of the agreement and all interest charges on my account since I opened it surely they must have an idea of whats going on?

 

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Scrapper

[Viscount Stair]

They almost certainly do have an idea of what's going on.

 

Strictly speaking you should keep up payments if you can until they miss the 12 working day limit.

 

They can chase within limits until the 12 working day limit. They shouldn't afterwards but will anyway.

[Scrapper]

Thanks Viscount

 

I got a responce from one of the companys today, but they have only sent me a copy of there terms and conditions plus a print out of any online form with an Esignature which was created on the 20/03/06. Where do I stand with that as my actual signature isn't on any documentation they have sent me.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Scrapper

[Viscount Stair]

For an agreement made online in 2006, an e-signature is valid. However, the other requirements still apply. If you can scan up a copy of what you have been sent, then someone can have a look at it for you and advise accordingly. That is not my area of expertise.