Accused of Gross Misconduct

[snowdragon]

Hi, me again

hope someone can help please. I started a job in August last year after being without one for 2 years and thought it was going well until recently.

We have had a new upstart "manager" start in our driver section, he came from Tesco express, and since he arrived has made every ones life hell.

I am a driver for this company and often have over £5k in cash in my van that has been collected from customers, they recently put safes in our vans to keep it in a secure place, the money is placed in an envelope that is sealed, we sign for it after watching the customer count it out to make sure it is correct, the also sign, well last week it seems there was £50 missing from one of the envelopes I handed in and he has accused me of taking it, I did say to him that why take £50 when I could if I had wanted to drive off with the van and the whole lot of money, he has been singleing me out and picking fault with everything I do.

Yesterday when I got to work he said I was not allowed out and was being suspended while an investigation takes place, I took the said envelope to pay point at our work place and it was intact. I am now to go back on Thursday to see my boss who employed me and this idiot, I have got someone who will speak up for me as well and all my customers have never had a complaint about me.

I would like advice please and sorry it is so lng but am worried as I am 53 so chance of getting another job may be slim, I love my job

[renegadeimp]

Is it an investigation or disciplinary? Either way he shouldnt be conducting it. It should be someone else who has nothing to do with the issue. He merely becomes an alleged witness.

[snowdragon]

hi renegadeimp

been told it is both? was told not to go any where near work or contact customers etc

He will be there as will the man who employed me and I have asked for someone to also stand up for me as he is quite willing to do so and he will be there, this bloke actually sacked someone on the spot the other day and put someone else on a disciplinary for not sweeping up the right way!

[honeybee13]

Hello Bobcat.

 

I'm sorry the problems are back. We advised you on this company at the end of last year, didn't we? I expect the employment gurus will be along over the course of the day.

 

HB

[snowdragon]

hi HB not as far as I know

Edited January 22, 2014 by snowdragon

[renegadeimp]

It cant be both. It can be one or the other. And it cant be the accusing manager that is giving the disciplinary. It has to be someone independant and has no connection to the alleged incident.

 

Also, regarding other people, do not bring that into it. Unless those members of staff are willing to file a formal collective grievance, it will be discounted unless it directly linked to your disciplinary.

 

Also, ideally the manager should NOT be int he room when you are giving your evidence ( if it is a disciplinary). he should remain outside the office or away, and allow you to give yours completely unhindered and without intimidation. The manager will be asked his side of the story seperately. You will then be called back in later on, onc ethe investigating manager reaches a conclusion and advised on what will happen.

 

What you can do, if the manager who is accusing you is in the Disciplinary meeting is ask for him to wait outside as you are concerned about impartiality. They cannot refuse to say no to this, as they can get another manager ( normally the HR manager) to record the meeting. Do you have a union rep on site you can speak to?

[snowdragon]

I think there is a union there but never been asked to join it, I have got someone who is going to help me though, have a feeling this guy will be at the hearing and all I know is I was told it is gross Misconduct, the other people are not going to be mentioned I was just stating what has been going on.

It is my word against theirs as they have no proof, and I would not even consider stealing, I took it to the pay point as normal and placed it there, was seen by them in pay point, and I left, I have been informed that someone had their phone stolen from there as well, thanks for the info Renegadeimp

[renegadeimp]

If its GM, then it is serious, and the accusing party should NOT be in the meeting at all. He should remain outside, just like any other witness would have to do. If he is in there, then both you and your rep should state that you are unwilling to give evidence until the manager is removed from the office. They cant hold this against you, especially if the manager has a history of intimidation.

 

Also, for GM, they must have a investigatory period. Be it a day or a week. The accusing manager cannot go straight to a GM with no evidence at all, and neither side been asked their story. When i was a union rep, i dealt with similar managers literally hundreds of times. You need to know your rights and what they can and cannot do when an investigatory or disciplinary is taking place. That way you can call them out when they make a glaring mistake ( as they have done now) and demand they rectify it.

[snowdragon]

was sent home yesterday as he said it was being investigated and have to go back tomorrow, he just seems to have it in for everyone there, just hope the bloke who gave me the job speaks up as other wise it is going to be very hard having this on my record or a reference, never had time off even when sick, nor been late and not had any holidays either.

I also think if I am kept on then the trust be gone as I will be looking over my shoulder and anything goes wrong they will be pointing fingers

[renegadeimp]

Ok. Thats normal. Suspension means they are doing an investigatory period. However, another manager should be doing this, and not your immediate one. You and others, have no idea if he;s forging paperwork or evidence. Im not saying he will, but thats why the rules are in place, to avoid it.

 

Like i said, in the disciplinary meeting, make sure the manager is removed from the office so you can give your side of the story without fear of interruption or intimidation. They cannot refuse. If you are telling the truth regarding what happened, then chances are youll just get a slap on the wrist and have some retraining so it doesnt happen again. Your main priority now is yourself. Dont worry about what others have gone through, because a grievance wasnt entered.

[kennythecelt]

Ok. Thats normal. Suspension means they are doing an investigatory period. However, another manager should be doing this, and not your immediate one. You and others, have no idea if he;s forging paperwork or evidence. Im not saying he will, but thats why the rules are in place, to avoid it.

 

Like i said, in the disciplinary meeting, make sure the manager is removed from the office so you can give your side of the story without fear of interruption or intimidation. They cannot refuse. If you are telling the truth regarding what happened, then chances are youll just get a slap on the wrist and have some retraining so it doesnt happen again. Your main priority now is yourself. Dont worry about what others have gone through, because a grievance wasnt entered.

 

I take it you hopefully have household insurance and other forms of insurance.

 

Please check these policies to see if you also have family/ legal cover which may cover employment issues for legal advice under such a policy.

 

You might even have been sold it by your bank as part of a new account you opened.

[snowdragon]

@ kenny,

what has household insurance to do with my problem! and no I do not have any , I am a HA tennant

thanks rengadeimp for the help, I will make sure he is not in the room with us, I just do like to be accused of stealing,

[renegadeimp]

Regarding insurance, a lot of policies have legal cover that you can use for situations like this. Although thell only get involved in cases that are extreme such as ongoing theft or violence etc. Pretty much anything else theyll just offer a quick consultation.

[snowdragon]

ah right, well not got any, everything got cancelled when I was out of work

[Emmzzi]

I think you will find unless the manager personally checked the cash, it is fine for him to hold the investigation and the disciplinary.

[snowdragon]

he did not as he was told the money was missing

[Emmzzi]

So I don;t think you can insist on him not being the investigating officer, I am afraid.

[kennythecelt]

@ kenny,

what has household insurance to do with my problem! and no I do not have any , I am a HA tennant

thanks rengadeimp for the help, I will make sure he is not in the room with us, I just do like to be accused of stealing,

 

I am sorry I upset you by suggesting that as you obviously had to cancel these types of things. You will not be in a good place just now and we appreciate that.

I have however known people fortunate enough to have household insurance cover with legal cover win cases of gross misconduct/ unfair dismissal entirely funded by the insurance and win their cases. It does depend on the assessment of the case however as they view it similar to a no win, no fee type of legal action.

 

Can you access a copy of the companies disciplinary procedures, perhaps a work mate can do that? Could you/ they obtain a copy of the cash procedures/ policy of the company?

 

Was the firm that handed in the sealed envelope and you signed for, and that was found to be £50 short, a reputable firm? Upon investigation, it may be found that they have a £50 surplus.

 

Do you know if the manager or anyone in your company has made investigations with that company about the amount put in it, ie it was £50 short? You must be given ful access to that and all required information before any hearing. Every bit of information they depend on must be supplied to you in advance of the hearing.

 

Has this type of thing happened to you before or anyone else in the company? If so, what happened in those cases?

 

This type of information will be needed and you can ask questions about it and be supplied with copies of all communications/ correspondence relating to this investigation.

 

It seems the envelope was properly secure from what you have said. How is the envelope sealed though? What is the envelope made of? Is it just a normal postage type envelope or is it more secure than that? This sounds like a procedural accident waiting to happen. If it's just a paper envelope stuck down then serious questions need to be asked about their working practices.

[snowdragon]

I always seal them with tape myself before putting them in the safe of the van, and yes from what I have heard others have been accused of similar things, this man has got it in for a lot of us it seems.

My company phoned the customer up to query the amount and they told them the money had been counted in front of me which they did, we both signed to say and I then put it in the safe in my van, once back at work I took it from the safe to the pay point and handed it over, it was still sealed

[snowdragon]

Emmzi, the " manager" who has accused me of this did not see anything, he has even gone through CCTV tapes, it was hearsay as someone told him the money was missing and he has automatically accused me, sorry but I want him nowhere near me

[Emmzzi]

That may be what you want, but you have no grounds to exclude him.

[kennythecelt]

So you have been in this job for about 6 months. Is that correct?

 

You cannot focus solely on this one manager as the scope of this is wider than him. It appears from what you have said that he has only been employed there for a couple of months and that money had gone missing before he arrived. The answers lie in what action the company has taken to stop money going missing given that it has happened before, from what you say. So:

 

How long ago did he start working?

 

How many complaints regarding money shortage have been made roughly (that you are aware of) and were those folk sacked ie what happened to them? Has this just started happening since the new manager started working, or did it happen before?

 

If the company knew there was a problem with money going missing, have they introduced any new procedures for collectors ie you or the folk working in the pay point? They should have tried to introduce new working practices. This can be used later.

 

Have they involved the Police in any of these cases?

 

Was there a CCTV camera overlooking where the cash was counted? (it's a long shot but just in case you both made a mistake).

 

However, I think you are inferring it has happened elsewhere within your company at the pay point/ counting office. So, is that area covered by CCTV? If not, it should be, particularly given past problems.

 

I asked this before but it was not answered

 

Can you access a copy of the companies disciplinary procedures, perhaps a work mate can do that? Could you/ they obtain a copy of the cash procedures/ policy of the company?

 

If you can't get that just now don't worry as you can demand it now.

 

They need to keep to their guidelines as well as ACAS.

 

It is good that you have someone to assist you.

[snowdragon]

I have been there since August last year, still no contract etc nor do we get overtime payments, the new bloke has been there about 3/4 months and only one lot of money been missing I think but that was found, good do keep going missing and no there is no CCTV in pay point as far as I am aware, I am not able to get the company procedures as you asked as never been given them and no the Police have never been called.

This person has even given disiplinary action to a worker for not sweeping up right

[snowdragon]

Emmzzi, if he was there he would not let me say my side as he has a habit of making sure he gets there first, a bum licker if you like

[Emmzzi]

Emmzzi, if he was there he would not let me say my side as he has a habit of making sure he gets there first, a bum licker if you like

 

Well, I can see why he wouldn't like you if that is how you describe him...!

 

Again - he's not involved in the theft. You can dislike it all you like. But you don't get to choose who investigates.