Court Fine paid, Bailiffs enforcing

[JimboD]

In 2012 I foolishly buried my head in the sand, and failed to pay a Magistrates court fine. Eventually, in 2013, Marstons caught up with me (several change of addresses) to enforce the fine.

 

I immediately telephoned the court, obtained the amount owed, and paid the amount in full, via debit card. The Marston bailiff telephoned me a day later, and advised that their fees were still outstanding.

 

This morning, the bailiff 'seized' my car, by affixing a wheel clamp to it, and a notice on the window. A 'notice of distress' was pushed through my door, claiming £300.

 

I've read various bits of advice on the web. As I understand it there are several things at play here:

1. I have settled the debt with the claimant. The Bailiffs have had no involvement, so cannot charge/enforce a fee. If it isn't stated on the original warrant, they cannot claim it.

2. My car is insured for business use, and is used in connection with my employment. The bailiff therefore cannot seize it.

3. The original notice of distress was issued in August 2012. This is only valid for a year, so is invalid.

4. My (live in) landlord can refuse to allow the bailiffs access to his property and grounds, and put up a notice to this effect.

 

Can anybody offer any advice and guidance, including on what I should do next? Can I legally remove their wheel clamp?

 

Cheers,

 

Jim

[JimboD]

The bailiff has just telephoned me to inform me my car is being towed away today.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I expect the forum guys will be along over the course of the day with advice for you. In fact I can see a couple of the regulars hovering. They'll know what to do.

 

My best, HB

[gstanny]

The bailiff has just telephoned me to inform me my car is being towed away today.

 

Don't think he can tow it away today, I believe he has to give you reasonable time to pay before he can do that

[JimboD]

Cheers guys, thanks for the warm welcome

[JimboD]

Don't think he can tow it away today, I believe he has to give you reasonable time to pay before he can do that

 

Is that based on when he 'seized' it, or some other date?

[JimboD]

The bailiff has just telephoned again, and insisted his office has not received my faxed letter. He has asserted that he will be removing the car today.

[%Ostrich%]

If you've failed to update the court with a new address then I'm afraid Marston's fees will be due.

 

Warning: Damaging a clamp while removing it from a seized vehicle is criminal damage regardless of what you've read to the contrary. Don't do it as it will open up a whole new can of worms for you.

 

To answer your questions specifically....

 

1. A fine is not a debt and HMCTS is not a claimant. The bailiffs became involved from the date the current valid warrant was issued. There may well have been a previous warrant issued but I dare say this will be a reissue of the original. Only the court can confirm this though. By taking poor advice from elsewhere and attempting to bypass Marstons with your direct payment to the court, you gave the bailiffs the red light to charge you an attendance fee (as clearly stated in the letter you received from them) in pursuit of the £85 compliance fee for sending you the letter in the first place!

 

2. Whether the bailiff actually takes your vehicle will very much depend on your line of employment, whether the vehicle is critical for that employment (ie: delivery driver) and/or whether the vehicle is modified specifically for that employment. If the business has several vehicles as it's disposal, this could also have a bearing on whether the vehicle is taken.

 

3. Although distress warrants are usually only valid for a set period, the current warrant could be a reissue as already stated. The court can also grant a time extension (if the old warrant) at the fine officer's discretion. In all likelihood though, this will be a reissue.

 

4. Your live in landlord could deny access but a distress warrant comes with the power of forced entry under some circumstances. If the bailiff has reasonable suspicion that you own goods in the property, the court could still grant the bailiff permission to use force in order to gain access and levy distress.

 

Putting signs up revoking implied rights of access are as much use as a chocolate teapot when it comes to a distress warrant. The bailiff's legal right to be there supersedes all other denial of rights.

 

 

Have you offered to provide insurance documents to substantiate your claim that it's used for business purposes?

 

Is your vehicle sign written in connection to your business?

[JimboD]

%Ostrich%,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

For your final two points - no, my vehicle is not sign written, but yes, I have offered to provide insurance documents to substantiate my claim.

 

In relation to the rest of your comments, thank you for those. What confuses me is that it seems quite possible to visit any number of recent forum posts across the internet, and find opposing point of views. A lot of these seem to quote various laws, for example Section 38 of Schedule 5 of the Courts Act 2003 in relation to clamping orders, and Section 54 of Chapter 2 of the protection of freedoms act in relation to clamping itself. Further sources related to 'certificated bailiffs' (these guys are not certificated) and various 'test' cases where it has been stated that Bailiffs trying to levy their own fees when the full amount of a Distress Warrant from a court has been paid are committing an offence under the 2006 Fraud act.

 

All of this (and given that most of these articles and posts reference specific laws) still leave me confused on two things - 1. Are Marston allowed to seize my car, given that I require it for business, and 2. Are they allowed to pursue £300 worth of fees on top of the original fine?

 

I would be grateful if any advice could include an explanation as to why their answer is the case, as there is a lot of uncertainty it seems.

[ploddertom]

What do you use your vehicle for?

[JimboD]

I've just spent a fair amount more time reading through the forum, and can see posts where people have stated that various of the laws quoted elsewhere on the internet are irrelevant. To be clear - I'm not criticising or refusing to accept %Ostrich%'s points, just trying to ensure I arm myself with all the facts!

 

Ploddertom - I use the vehicle for commuting to and from work, and whilst at work I use it for getting myself and various equipment to customers premises, or to other other locations in support of other staff members.

[ploddertom]

Can you clarify "equipment"? And how often?

[sgtbush]

 

I immediately telephoned the court, obtained the amount owed,

 

This morning, the bailiff 'seized' my car, by affixing a wheel clamp to it, and a notice on the window. A 'notice of distress' was pushed through my door, claiming £300.

 

I've read various bits of advice on the web. As I understand it there are several things at play here:

1. I have settled the debt with the claimant. The Bailiffs have had no involvement, so cannot charge/enforce a fee. If it isn't stated on the original warrant, they cannot claim it.

2. My car is insured for business use, and is used in connection with my employment. The bailiff therefore cannot seize it.

3. The original notice of distress was issued in August 2012. This is only valid for a year, so is invalid.

4. My (live in) landlord can refuse to allow the bailiffs access to his property and grounds, and put up a notice to this effect.

 

Can anybody offer any advice and guidance, including on what I should do next? Can I legally remove their wheel clamp?

 

Cheers,

 

Jim

in answer to your questions

1. even tho you have paid the court direct, the court pass that payment to marstons as they have issued a warrant, that is what the 300 quid is, 85 admin fee when the court issued the warrant, marstons would of writtain to you informing you their is a warrant, they enforced this by attending and 215 enforcement costs are added.. these fees are set by the court, not marstons, and ARE fully enforcable under the warrant

 

2 is your car insured for buisness use SOLEY... is their any other terms on the policy like SDP and buisness use, if their is then the car can be siezed unless their are exceptional circumstances

 

3 you need to find out from the court or marstons the issue date of the warrant, it may of been re-issued

 

4 no your landlord cannot remove implied rights of access, this is a court warrant. the DVCV act 2004 is what allows them forced entry to the property if you willfully refuse to pay the fine AND all assosiated costs

 

do not remove the clamp as you will be arrested for criminal damage and interfierance of goods,( if it has been siezed with all the proper paper work) has he left a notice of distress or siezure?

even if he has not i advise not to touch the clamp just to be on the safe side

 

just read your reply later..

you need to specifi what you actually do for work, what type of vehicle is it? a van, car derived van or just a normal car.

[sgtbush]

A lot of these seem to quote various laws, for example Section 38 of Schedule 5 of the Courts Act 2003 in relation to clamping orders, and Section 54 of Chapter 2 of the protection of freedoms act in relation to clamping itself. Further sources related to 'certificated bailiffs

 

just to clarify these two laws, a clamping order is not requires, as the warrant of distress commands the authorised person to remove assets

freedom act does not apply as its a siezure of assets under a warrant of distress, bailiffs acting with a warrant CAN clamp

 

 

Further sources related to 'certificated bailiffs' (these guys are not certificated) and various 'test' cases where it has been stated that bailiffs trying to levy their own fees when the full amount of a Distress Warrant from a court has been paid are committing an offence under the 2006 Fraud act.

Legally the person only needs to be an authorised person or employee of an authorised company, doing distress warrants DOES NOT LEGALLY require the bailff to have a certificate... however the courts contractually require them to be certified so if any wrong doing is complained about, the defendent has redress through the courts in the form of a form 4 complaint

 

 

All of this (and given that most of these articles and posts reference specific laws) still leave me confused on two things - 1. Are Marston allowed to seize my car, given that I require it for business, and 2. Are they allowed to pursue £300 worth of fees on top of the original fine?

 

the 300 is made up of £85 admin fee, this is when you have failed to pay the court the fine and they issue the warrant,

the £215 is when you get a visit fir the person to fully enforce the warrant.

these fees are set by the court itself NOT marstons and are fully recoverable under the command of the warrant as reasonable costs of keeping and enforcing the warrant.

 

 

i think this is set out in the magistrates court act and the criminal procedures rules. someone will clarify this im sure

Edited December 13, 2013 by sgtbush

[JimboD]

The equipment in my vehicle is things like first aid training dolls, marine vhf radios, and assorted boating equipment. It is also used for towing boats on trailers.

 

The more people that reply on here, the more it seems clear that I do owe the £300, and just need to get this paid.

 

I assume it is irrelevant that the bailiff doesn't appear on the certificated bailiff register?

[sgtbush]

i just edited my post answering that question for you

 

Further sources related to 'certificated bailiffs' (these guys are not certificated) and various 'test' cases where it has been stated that bailiffs trying to levy their own fees when the full amount of a Distress Warrant from a court has been paid are committing an offence under the 2006 Fraud act.

Legally the person only needs to be an authorised person or employee of an authorised company, doing distress warrants DOES NOT LEGALLY require the bailff to have a certificate... however the courts contractually require them to be certified so if any wrong doing is complained about, the defendent has redress through the courts in the form of a form 4 complaint. the person can under the contract work for 6 months uncertified, then they must have 1 but its contractual not law

 

unfortunatly you do owe it, in hindsight you should of paid the fine before the warrant was issued, and even if you didnt, delt with it before the full enforcement (£85 stage)

but hindsight is a wonderfull thing, my life would be so different if i knew then what i know now!

 

i hope the info helped you

[JimboD]

OK, that's understood guys.

 

Now, I am not in a position to pay this fine off 'right now'. I'm assuming I have no method of getting a delay or instalment plan?

[sgtbush]

one q about your vehicle tho... is it on HP or lease?

[JimboD]

Nope, it's fully owned by me.

[ploddertom]

The usual test for a vehicle is Toseland Building Supplies v Bishop 1993 where it was held that as Bishop allowed another employee to drive the dumper truck it was not therefore classed as a tool of the trade. In your own case it could also be held that there are alternative methods of transport available, now if you were a builder or strangely enough even a beauty therapist then you may have a case to argue.

 

It is mentioned in many places that just because someone is self employed their vehicle is protected - this is totally wrong as each case must be taken on its own merits.

[sgtbush]

OK, that's understood guys.

 

Now, I am not in a position to pay this fine off 'right now'. I'm assuming I have no method of getting a delay or instalment plan?

 

technically you need to pay it now, what is the age/ make of the car? this is important info for me to work out if they will actually remove

 

if you agree with the bailiff he might sieze on paper and leave it with you, as a guarentee you will pay and maybe split it into 2 or 3 payments.

this it at the discretion of the bailiff tho not the court,

realistically if you are nice to him he will, if your not he wont.

[JimboD]

It is a 10 year old Mondeo Estate.

 

I suspect, that following the dodgy internet advice I have questioned him on, that I have burnt any bridges I may once have had with the Bailiff!

[sgtbush]

go to an online valuing service on the net and get a value of your car please.. post the value here but on the face value of it, they wont remove as it wouldnt cover fine and costs at auction

 

phone him, just say i apologise if i have come accross badly, you were shocked and in a bit of a panic state, but you are calm now and want to deal with this.

i know bailiffs have a bad reputation, and some are down right nasty, but most are good and will help people, if asked nicely.

i think this will do you a lot of favours with him, but if you have got one of the nasty ones then it wont help.

thats the luck of the draw im afraid

[JimboD]

It's worth maybe £1200.

 

I just phoned him, and explained that I had accepted some dodgy advice without first questioning it. He was very reasonable and it was clear we'd both calmed down - the car isn't being towed until Monday, and we've agreed I can make a payment tonight.

 

Thanks for all your help guys!

 

Jimbo

[sgtbush]

no prob

 

1200 retail, not auction so its doubtful it would get towed anyways