APCOA fake? claim form received, hospital car park/worker, several tickets (£3000 court order) - help [

[dx100uk]

you need to remove the barcodes and ref numbers from the 2 page court form.

 

dx

[zeospeed]

Done!

[ericsbrother]

They dont know what they are talking about and is nothing to do with them,

they are not the line manager of your OH, this is not a parking issue, it is an employment contract issue as far as your partner is concerned.

 

Essentially court action is being threatened for travelling to work and working at the defined place of emplyment. That is a nonsense.

 

You havent got any properly filed county court summonses as yet, what you have is a fake document that can get the sender thrown into prison

if someone takes the matter seriously enough.

 

Ignore anything from DR+, they have no powers or say in anything at all, they are paid by APCOA to write letters, nothing more.

 

The hospital cannot give them permission to alter the terms of employment for a NHS employee.

 

Ignore APCOA or threaten them with an injunction for harassment

- if you have the money to spend on the amount they are claiming you can spend it on that instead.

 

They have no rights in this matter, it is between your other half and the employer and I would be dropping scouse magic a line and comparing notes and contracts.

No, the hospital doesnt have the right to collect the debt, there is no debt to collect or they would have stopped it from salary.

 

The parking co exist purely to collect money from anyone and they dont work for the hospital but for themselves.

They then hand over an agreed fee for being allowed to misuse the facilities paid for by the taxpayer to make a profit.

The NHS are not allowed to do this so they take the bung and get their senior managers put on the board of directors of the companies of some of these outfits

as it helps the company get another contract.

 

Illegal?

no but it is hardly right and proper.

[zeospeed]

So what you're saying is that their claim of taking me to court is rubbish?

 

If I get another one of these (and I suspect I will be getting a few), should I ignore or respond?

 

They attached guidelines written by the HM courts and tribunal service (is this basically more rubbish to increase the validity of the threat?).

 

Not sure what my next course of action should be.

 

Do I sit it out and ignore everything so far?

 

Or do I need to speak to the hospital and build a case just in case it is taken to court?

[Raykay]

You havent got any properly filed county court summonses as yet, what you have is a fake document

 

The one in post 24 looks genuine enough - stamped and a barcode. The OP needs to contact the court and check. If it is genuine, it is a different matter.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Raykay

[Homer67]

So you need to deal with the court claim which appears to be genuine,

read the sticky posts which include the defense you need to resister,

 

what can happen is the PPC withdraw the claim once you have entered the defence,

however as you have built up such a lot of these invoices they may try to push this,

 

you need to enter your defense or you could leave yourself wide open for the rest of the claims

- same applies if you pay this one, they will then go for the rest,

 

so defend and win and send them scurrying back under the stone from whence they came.

[zeospeed]

So you need to deal with the court claim which appears to be genuine, read the sticky posts which include the defense you need to resister, what can happen is the PPC withdraw the claim once you have entered the defense, however as you have built up such a lot of these invoices they may try to push this, you need to enter your defense or you could leave yourself wide open for the rest of the claims - same applies if you pay this one, they will then go for the rest, so defend and win and send them scurrying back under the stone from whence they came.

 

I have tried to freeze the payment, but unfortunately it has gone through. My partner's bank has advised that they can try and claim it back however, we need to ask DR+ to give it back first, and if they disagree then we have to go through a dispute of claims process.

 

As this payment has gone through, will this leave me with a diminished defence if future claims orders are sent?

 

I have read the stickies but am still not clear as to what argument I can use in my defence?

Edited September 13, 2013 by zeospeed

[dx100uk]

how did she pay

 

dx

[Scouse Magic]

Hi there, firstly the good news....there is light at the end of the tunnel !!! please read this very carefully over and over......

 

Disclaimer: I do not advocate simply parking for free and asking how to avoid paying although I do believe what is going on is morally and ethically wrong when it comes to hospital parking..

Before we discuss the case, lets talk about the Hospital...The security have zilch to do with parking...Appeals to the Hospital's Parking Management team will fall on deaf ears because we are talking about revenue !! The people who can quosh all these shenanigans are the barristers in the Hospital's Risk & Legal department..Who will have no idea what has been going on.(Trust me i've been there)

 

Your partner needs to write to the Risk & Legal department (Copy to the Chief Executive,) stating that she is being harassed by debt collectors and having fake court documents sent to her address asking for £3000 for an alleged 20 tickets (£150 each) all in the Hospital's name and that she intends to contact the local media to show how the Trust is raising revenue by pursuing the very staff that care for the patients....

 

Right lets get to the Crux of the matter.....Your partner needs to telephone Northampton County Court Bulk Centre and also her Nearest County Court to find out if any claims have officially been submitted against her....

 

If it transpires that a firm have sent her fake court documents...go to the police, it's a criminal offence and complain to the OFT as well....

 

Now then moving on....As I understand this situation, APCOA have a contract to manage parking, any outstanding unpaid charges then get passed to Debt Recovery Plus, and if they have no luck, they will pass the matter onto Solicitors.......

 

Let me make this very clear, they are on very dodgy ground because penalties for non payment under contract law are unenforceable.....

They will mislead you and the Courts into making it look like they have a genuine case on behalf of the Hospital (Who haven't even requested legal action.)

 

You can ask the Court to have the entire claim struck out and hold them in contempt, as the solicitor has no cause of action against you, and is wasting the Courts time trying to extract money out of you....This is because they will state that their claimant is the Hospital Trust, when the actual chain is...Solicitor acting on behalf of Debt Collector acting on behalf of APCOA who have a Contract with the Trust (It's a multi party claim, thats how a £2 parking slot became £3000.)

 

This matter will not fall under POFA. and never worry about going to court to defend yourself as the Courts are very fair and helpful.

This will be a case of Liabilty (assuming it goes ahead.) In other words, what authority do APCOA have that states your partner is liable ????

The onus is on the claimant to fully prove their case.

 

They will argue that as your partner is the registered keeper and works there, and they have a few photo's of the vehicle, it is implausible to believe she was not driving on the dates in question...

 

If the dates on the claim do not match the dates of the alleged event as you say...that is enough to dismiss the case.....

 

There also has to be close up photographs of the dashboard which clearly shows no pay & display ticket....Simply showing a photo of the vehicle is not enough..

 

And the charge is a penalty which is designed to threaten and intimidate for the purpose of prompt payment, therefore not recoverable in Law.

 

This is because the landowner (If the events actually occurred,) only suffered a maximum loss of 20 x £2 = £40 assuming your partner admits liability.....How that charge rises to £3000 via a series of debt collectors and solicitors is totally disproportionate and not a Genuine Pre Estimate of Actual Loss..

 

Due to the chain involved here, I doubt they will want to do court because they are not the Landowner, but just be on your guard......

If you have real court papers, come back here

 

Kind Regards SM

 

PS: I so hate these companies because I was taken to court by one and I genuinely never received a ticket......They Lost !!!!!!

 

Also on the Actual Court Documents it is not for them to ask your preferred Court, it automatically gets transferred to yours once a defence is lodged

Edited September 14, 2013 by Scouse Magic

[Scouse Magic]

Sorry just noticed on that shady looking claim form that the claimant is APCOA and the Particulars of claim is "Unpaid Parking Charge"....

 

My response to that is that APCOA are not the landowners...They may have a contract that states they can monitor parking, but you can request that the court see's this document, as they have to have permission to bring proceedings in the name of the Trust but the trust are not named on the claim ????

 

Recovery costs my bum !!!! it's profiteering from the sick

Edited September 14, 2013 by Scouse Magic

[zeospeed]

how did she pay

 

dx

 

By debit card.

 

SM, thanks for your reply buddy, I will PM you.

 

All the help is greatly appreciated guys.

[Scouse Magic]

Hi there,

PM not recommended unless it is the site team that PM you.....Don't worry you have a far better chance of victory than them.....

 

You must bring the matter to the attention of the Risk & Legal Department as above

 

cheers

[zeospeed]

Just realised PM Doesn't work as I don't have enough post counts. I have the following questions:

 

1. So my first course of action would be to check if the claim form is legit (I assume it probably is as it has a stamp, a barcode and advice from the HM Courts and Tribunals service).

 

2. The next course of action would be to check if APCOA have actual evidence regarding the 20+ parking tickets, would you recommend contacting APCOA about this?

 

3. With regards to admitting liability, hospital workers generally have a strict code of being honest apparently, so I doubt my partner would deny the tickets completely. Thus, how would we approach writing to the Risk and legal dept.?

 

4. Further to the above, should APCOA have good evidence and my partner admits liability, are you saying in the worst case scenario all she owes is the actual face value of the parking tickets?

 

5. Does the fact that she has paid the value on the court summons made her open to further attack by DR+?

[Scouse Magic]

1. Yes telephone Northampton County Court and check the claim has been issued.

 

2. You could request this information if you want to but they Must supply all photographic evidence 14 days prior to any hearing.

 

3. It is not being dishonest to dispute the legality of the claim and the £3000 charge. The Risk & Legal Department will have no idea you are being threatened with court...I mean come on £3000 for coming to work,,,,I dont think so do you !! Thats worthy of a news story

 

4.Under English Contractual Law a landowner can only bring proceedings for damages resulting from a civil trespass or Loss of revenue for breach of contract....Business costs cannot be added such as call centre staff working for debt collectors, uniforms, signage etc......£3000 does not represent what the landowner actually lost even if your partner did park there and lost all 20 tickets

 

5. It could be argued that she was frightened and under duress !!

[Scouse Magic]

And just because nurses have a code of conduct does not mean that an employer or anyone acting on their behalf, should set debt collectors on to them for what is effectively unjustified charges......It is a civil dispute not a professional issue....

[zeospeed]

Thanks, the other issue is that my partner is not the registered keeper of the car (at the time of the tickets), will this affect anything?

 

Also, I was looking at a similar case:

http://www.penaltychargenotice.co.uk/private-land-enforcement/court-cases/court-cases-for-private-parking-tickets/

 

Look at the case of NHS Aintree vs. Perera; he HAD a parking permit but knowingly parked on a double yellow 25 times and owed 2 grand after ignoring the parking charge notices. This in some ways is a similar case to mine.

 

The judge ruled in favour of Perera, however I would like to point out the following: He argued that he had paid for a parking permit, and this coupled with the fact parking in the yellow line did not cause any financial loss for the hospital, meant that there were no damages that he owed.

 

In our case, my partner did not have a permit and allegedly did not pay for a parking ticket i.e. She did not make any effort to fix the damages (unlike Perera who had a valid permit).

 

If this went to court and this was conceded, could the judge still make us pay £140 per ticket, or would it be based upon the damages sustained by the NHS trust (which would essentially be the cost of the parking tickets, and not any further penalties).

 

Also, couldn't the NHS trust argue that the damages per ticket is £140 as the losses sustained by the trust include the amount they pay APCOA to chase up parking tickets as well as the value of the parking ticket itself?

 

Unfortunately the courts aren't open today: It should be noted that one the claim form the claimant is APCOA parking, as they are not the landowners does this render this claim form redundant?

 

Thanks

 

(I know you cannot 100% accurately predict what a Judge will say, as anything is possible)

Edited September 14, 2013 by zeospeed

[Liverpool way]

Sorry done as pdf, the APCOA debt collection letter is attached in this one (NB: 20+ for different tickets as this one). Claim form in the one before.

 

Can you please advise what the date was this alledged parking contravention, as I see that this letter refers to POFA and that did not come into effect until 02/10/2012?

 

So any pcn's prior to this date come under the old regulations and POFA should not be quoted............

[dx100uk]

By debit card.

 

SM, thanks for your reply buddy, I will PM you.

 

All the help is greatly appreciated guys.

 

have you demanded a chargeback with you bank yet

 

dx

[zeospeed]

have you demanded a chargeback with you bank yet

 

dx

 

Bank states we need to ask the debt collectors to give the money back, if they refuse then the bank has some sort of process (partner will hopefully try today).

 

@LiverPoolCarePathway: because we throw away most of the DR+/APCOA documentation (also as my partner was not the registered keeper of the car at the time, most of the stuff did not come to us directly); I can't actually find the ticket/APCOA reminder/DR+ documentation for the claim form in question (likely thrown away), and I have 19 current DR+ demands for each ticket, but none for that date (that doesn't mean to say that it is not valid, as my partner throws away most of the demand documentation as aforementioned).

 

As this is before POFA, does it make it harder to defend? (Most of the tickets are post-2013 however)

[Scouse Magic]

You must know what the date was on the DR+ letter as you posted it up.......

 

The Registered Keeper will receive all correspondence regardlesss.....

 

The RK has a number of options if being pursued.

1. Name the Driver.

 

2.. Admit that the contravention took place and pay up, then it goes away if you think that is fair.

 

3.. Dispute that the charge claimed is totally disproportionate to what the land owner lost as a result of the car being there quote " Under contract law the claimant should be entitled only to a sum which would put him in the same position as he would have been in if the breach of contract had not occurred."

 

So in this case 20 x £2.00 ( or whatever the tarrif is) = £ 40.00 !!!!

 

Then ask yourself what proportion of £40.00 will go back to the hospital ??

[zeospeed]

Thanks. Do we need to send these arguments to DR+, APCOA, the legal department of the hospital (or all three)?

[Scouse Magic]

You state in post number 17 that your partner paid the charge so that matter has now gone away.

 

Why did she pay if she is not the registered keeper (Was she named ?) and who is the RK ?

 

You seem very clued up !

[zeospeed]

RK is a close relative, but my partner was using the car when the tickets were issued (she essentially is the primary driver). The fine is essentially my partner's, the matter has not really gone away. As the RK is a very close relative, either of us paying would be the same result principally speaking.

 

My partner spoke to DR+ who stated that she needed to pay the amount on the claim form to stop court action; she then asked how much else is in arrears to which they stated 20+ tickets at £140 each.

[dx100uk]

it is not a fine!

 

nowhere do they [i hope] use that word or the word PENALTY.

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

You must respond to the county court summons by filling out the part where it asks if you intend to defend the claim.

 

Tick the bit where it says the claim is denied in its entirety and then say that a full defence will be sent to the claimant and court within the prescribed time.

 

That means you wont get clobbetred by default and you can then sit back for a while and prepare for what you want to do next.

 

There is plenty of advice on these forums but you need to sift through it and find what is relevant to your case.

 

Your OH still needs to get a copy of employment contract and any other relevant terms that are specific to parking.

 

If there arent any specific terms then that should be made clear by asking HR very clearly defined questions about employment terms and implied terms of employment

that are both specific to their job and those for all workers on that site and in that trust.

 

Dont tell HR why they are needed, it is a right to have the info and unlawful not to supply it