bought a dangerous, un-roadworthy vehicle

[Dukesy]

Hi all, feeling like a complete idiot here. On monday I bought a vehicle from a private seller. Vehicle was taxed and tested and described in the advert as 'a lovely example', 'in excellent condition', and 'well looked after'. The advert mentioned lots of replacement parts and thatt the vehicle had 'just been serviced'.

 

I am not a mechanic, and the vehicle seemed fine to me, so I paid for it (nearly £4000) and drove it away.

 

On wednesday afternoon, the prop shaft started rattling loudly. I took it into an independent garage, which I and my family have been using for decades, and which specialises in vehicles of this make. They confirmed it was the U/Joint on the prop that was causing the rattle, and I was happy to sort this myself, as the odd repair is only to be expected on a used vehicle.

 

However, on thursday afternoon, I received a phone call from the garage stating that after they had driven it across their yard, they had become so worried about the handling of the vehicle that they had got it up on the ramp and given it a full inspection. The faults they had found were numerous, and included things that the seller had had work done on.

 

Worse, the garage informed me that some of the issues were so severe (potentially lethal, as one of the issues was that the steering was so badly fitted that it could fail at any point) that they could not let me drive it away, and that I should have it trailered. The garage told me that the vehicle was dangerous, un-roadworthy, certainly illegal to drive on the roads, and beyond economical repair. They have point blank refused to undertake any work on it, it is so bad (bear in mind I have known this mechanic for many years and if he says he will not work on it, it's not worth working on).

 

The garage have also stated that an area of corrosion underneath is so severe that the vehicle should never have passed its last MOT. They suggested I report the MOT tester to VOSA, and the seller to the police.

 

The seller is absolutely refusing to have anything to do with me or the vehicle - I have asked him to take it back and refund me, as I am sure he has not just misrepresented the vehicle, but committed a criminal offence in selling such a dangerous vehicle to me under false pretences.

 

Basically, his words are 'take me to court'. Help

[renegadeimp]

Call his bluff and do it. You have the mechanics report and have given him the chance to rectify amicably.

 

He has refused, he knows he lied so your only recourse is through the courts.

 

Make sure you report the mot tester to the police and vosa as a matter of urgency. Who knows how many cars he has passed that are in that condition.

[Conniff]

Don't feel bad about yourself or your lack of mechanical knowledge. We all know there are people out there that deliberately and selfishly knowlingly con others.

 

It is illegal for a private seller to sell a car in a dangerous condition it is also unlawfull to describe in it as anything other.

 

Where did you see the car advertised, how old is it and what is the model ?

 

You must get a full written report on company headed paper from your garage listing all the faults and saying that in their professional opinion, the car is dangerous and unroadworthy and signed at the bottom and have it stamped with the business stamp.

 

You must send a copy of this report to the seller (and Trading Standards), and give him 7 days to give you a full refund or you will start legal proceedings against him.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Conniff

[Dukesy]

Have been on to VOSA who say that as the MOT is more than six months old, I will have to email them with pictures detailing the nature of the issue. The garage who inspected the vehicle for me have stated that there is absolutely no way that the corrosion could have occurred in the time since the last MOT, and that it would certainly have been an MOT fail at the time, so I shall do this immediately. The MOT hasn't even got any advisories on it.

 

It is my understanding that under the Road Traffic Act it's a criminal offence for even a private seller to sell an unroadworthy vehicle whilst claiming it to be 'in excellent condition', and making no mention of any issues which could make it unroadworthy, is this actually right, and should I report him to the police for committing an offence under the RTA 1988?

 

He also claimed in his advert that it had 'just been serviced', shouldn't this cover power steering etc?

[renegadeimp]

Follow conniffs good advice. Stick to the set procedure. Follow each timeframe closely, and as soon as each elapses, follow up immediately with the next one. Dont give this conman an inch of breathing room.

[Peterbard]

Do you still have a copy of the advert? If it was online and may not have been removed yet, get a copy asap.

[Dukesy]

So the seller has refused to enter into any agreement with us, and unfortunately we're going down the legal route with this now.

 

Having sent off an mcol claim, we have now noticed that the seller is registered on ebay as a business seller (didn't notice this before, stupidly) and have printed off several copies of his advert (upon which the options at the top state 'Returns Accepted' - would this stand us in better stead, do you think?). Through googling his phone number, we have also realised that he has been selling other vehicles. I haven't found a huge number, but have found more than I would expect to find for the average person. Suspect that he may be trading a little on the side... Trading Standards are investigating and have promised to supply us with any information which may be of use to us, should they come across any.

 

Seller still denies all knowledge of any issues with the vehicle. I have been contacting all sorts of people to gather a case against him - including contacting a local Land Rover dealership to ascertain what areas should be covered under a service, and have found that almost ALL the faults which have been listed by our mechanic SHOULD have been picked up by any service technician. So, on that basis, he should have been well aware of the issues, had he actually serviced it. Furthermore, the area of excessive corrosion underneath (spring seat) would absolutely have been noticed when the springs were changed, which he claims he had done, and which does appear to have been done. Other work he claims to have had done is also problematic - basically, there is a problem with prettymuch everything he has apparently had done to the vehicle, and this is a pretty large list.

 

Argh, stress!

[sailor sam]

TS should investigate this anyway. It is illegal for a trader to pose as a private seller. With the extra info you have provided, you should walk this in court. But be warned, if he is a rogue, he will know how to play the system so you may be faced with a long drawn out case. Ultimately when you get your judgement and he still won't pay, you can apply to the high court these days and have the sheriffs collect for you. Cost is £60 I believe but you have to go through the system first.

 

P.S. DON'T FORGET TO CLAIM THE INTEREST!

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Peterbard]

Indeed - any debt over £600 can be escalated to the High Court and HCEO's instructed. If they don't collect you lose £60.00, but if they don't collect, they get nothing. HCEO's are quite scary to deal with, and can do things certificated bailiffs cannot.

[Dukesy]

So, the complete toad is defending the claim in its entirety.

 

His defence is based upon the idea of 'sold as seen', and that he 'never claimed the vehicle to be roadworthy/unroadworthy'. This is not good enough. When a vehicle is stated to be 'in excellent condition' etc, is taxed and used on the road and there is NO mention of being unroadworthy, the assumption is that it is being sold as roadworthy. I will be sending him and the court a copy of the RTA, with appropriate sections highlighted, to back my understanding that a vehicle should be stated to be unroadworthy at the point of sale.

 

He also states that he would not have known about any of the issues present until MOT. This is also not good enough. Anyway, what about that service it apparently had? That should have picked up the issues with the vehicle.

 

He then claims that all the issues I have raised are wear and tear parts. They are not. The steering linkage missing integral bolts does not come under wear and tear, excessive corrosion on the spring seat bracket (particularly when the advert claims there is no rot in the chassis), to the point where one can just flake it off is not just wear and tear and so on and so forth. The various other missing bits and bobs related to the radiator, engine and power steering are not wear and tear - they are MISSING!

 

He further goes on to say that he honestly believes that I have decided that I dislike the vehicle and have got my mechanic to fabricate a list of issues in order to get my money back! I am absolutely fuming - had the vehicle been in the condition he claimed it to be in, and had I decided I simply didn't like it, I would and could have sold it on for what I paid. As it is, I am stuck with a vehicle worth less than half of that, I have had to borrow money from my parents to buy another 4x4 as I need it for my work, and I am having to spend my money and time on court!

 

Grr, absolutely revving at this little whatsit!!

[Dukesy]

Oh, and further to all of that, having just got the V5 through the post, we've realised that he hasn't declared any modifications to DVLA (such as the engine upgrade its had), therefore as we don't know the extent of mods, even if it were to be restored to a roadworthy standard, it's basically uninsurable!

[bmwman]

You may find this useful especially section 13

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.pdf

[Conniff]

Where are we going with this Dukesy, any update ??

[Dukesy]

Where are we going with this Dukesy, any update ??

 

At the moment it's a bit quiet. We have said, in the spirit of being reasonable, that we will give mediation a go, so we're waiting on that at the moment.

[sailor sam]

At the moment it's a bit quiet. We have said, in the spirit of being reasonable, that we will give mediation a go, so we're waiting on that at the moment.

 

You mean like the seller has been? Personally I think you are wasting your time. If he was going to co-operate, he would of done so before you took him to court.

 

But please keep us posted.

[david1471]

hi gone through very similar thing as you, sailor Sam is spot on with his advise. If he wanted to sort your issue he would have done before hand, he will agree to prolong going to court, then not enter defence against your claim, then start using set aside not turn up then enter another set aside. this is happening to me right now. I cant do a thing to stop it but keep hanging in there till the point comes where court say no more your paying. 1 bit of good advice don't use court bailiffs waste of time and money.

 

just a query where did you purchase vehicle, sounds very similar story to mine. ie:- ebay trader, rogue garage doing shoddy work and filled service book and using different names and phone numbers acting has private sales.

[david1471]

I can certainly tell you he cant get away with saying he never claimed the car to be roadworthy/unroadworthy, it would be up to him to no has he would have had to informed you before hand, you need to tow the vehicle has it his not fit for purpose. So by letting you drive vehicle away he claiming its fit for purpose.

[Dukesy]

Thanks everyone for posting, it's great to have your suggestions, help and support!

 

I have to agree with the point that mediation is likely to be a waste of time, but I think I'm just too reasonable a person sometimes! As my parents have helped me out with my new vehicle, I'm now lucky enough to be in the position of being able to ride this out for a bit longer than I would otherwise, and so have gone with the mediation as a 'just in case'. Also, and I appreciate that I may be labouring under a misapprehension here, but I'm hoping that, if/when mediation fails to get me anywhere, the judge when it eventually goes to a hearing will look on me favourably, as I really have tried to be reasonable.

 

Thanks for the point about bailiffs, by the way - when it comes to that, which it probably will, I shall make sure I follow your advice there.

[sailor sam]

I would use the high court sheriffs. They have more clout than the CC bailiffs.

[Dukesy]

I would use the high court sheriffs. They have more clout than the CC bailiffs.

 

Yes sorry, I meant sheriffs!

[Surfer01]

I thought High Court Sheriffs were phased out a few years ago?

[Dukesy]

Mediation is scheduled for this afternoon. Not holding out for much, and have a very clear idea of what we will accept, but fingers crossed the defendant has realised he doesn't have a leg to stand on!

[flynnsmum123]

good luck,but from what you have said of this seller i can't see you getting anywhere with him

[Dukesy]

good luck,but from what you have said of this seller i can't see you getting anywhere with him

 

Thanks

 

We really aren't expecting much to come of this, but we're just taking the view that as it's a service that's being offered, we may as well give it a go. If the seller fails to agree to anything within a couple of hundred pounds of what we're asking, then we will then be proceeding to court with it. We're already resigned to the fact that this is what will probably be the outcome!

[Dukesy]

So! We had a fun afternoon... Sat in the living room, with all our paperwork spread over the table waiting for the phone to ring.

 

About quarter of an hour late, the mediator finally calls, only to tell us that the defendant has stated that he will not be making any offer of any kind, and that he will not discuss it further.

 

Now, we had not expected to actually get anywhere sensible with the mediation malarky, but I have to be honest, I didn't think anyone would agree to mediation only to say that they weren't going to enter into any kind of discussion whatsoever! What is the point of that!