PCN Wimbledon Village

[Desperate Daniella]

Where are the statutory grounds of appeal listed?

 

The whole point I have been making here is that there is no point in appealing to PATAS because they only consider the nine grounds of appeal, and therefore anyone is better off arguing with the council about mitigation rather than going to PATAS, which you have just confirmed is right. But of course the Councils are very keen to point people in the direction of a PATAS appeal because they know PATAS will throw it out if it is not covered by the nine grounds.

[Jamberson]

So you just tick one of the boxes. Did not occur (as the vehicle, he would argue, was not parked). Or impropriety (argue that the council is being over-zealous and acting against the public interest). Then you get to sit before the adjudicator and make your case. (Of course, if you want to win, you have to have a case of some sort.)

[green_and_mean]

Where are the statutory grounds of appeal listed?

 

The whole point I have been making here is that there is no point in appealing to PATAS because they only consider the nine grounds of appeal, and therefore anyone is better off arguing with the council about mitigation rather than going to PATAS, which you have just confirmed is right. But of course the Councils are very keen to point people in the direction of a PATAS appeal because they know PATAS will throw it out if it is not covered by the nine grounds.

 

Maybe if you understood something about parking legislation before giving advice it would help. The statutary grounds are stated in the statutary regulations http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/contents/made . Councils are not keen to point you to PATAS as it costs them money, they consider your representations including mitigation and then either reject or accept them. Then if YOU choose you can go to PATAS and use the statutary grounds of appeal, if none of them apply then maybe you should have been slightly more sensible where you parked.

[unimatrix1066]

hi

this was an appeal to the council , i just filled in the text box explaining the what happenned.

will tis stop the procedure or will the 21 days to pay still run

cheers

[Desperate Daniella]

I have given very good advice to a number of people on how to appeal PCNs. And guess what, it's worked every time!

 

I am extremely careful where I park which is why I have had only six PCNs in my entire life and I've been driving for over 30 years. I paid two of them because I was in the wrong. I had overstayed my time on a meter, not deliberately but it was still my fault, so I paid up. I appealed the other four on various different grounds and they were all cancelled by the Council, not PATAS, but on almost every occasion it involved lengthy correspondence with the Council before they gave in. Other friends have followed my advice and had their tickets cancelled.

 

I've also had Congestion Charge Penalties cancelled and helped at least one person on CAG to do the same. She was very happy I gave her advice.

 

Thank you for providing the link to the statutory regulations. I'll certainly have a look if and when I need to; so far I've managed by using logic and common sense in my representations.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi,

 

In the London boroughs that I know about, if they receive your appeal within the 14 days offered for a discounted rate (and you appear to have 21 days at a discounted rate) then if your appeal is turned down they will still offer the discounted rate for another 14 days from the date they refuse the appeal.

 

DD

[green_and_mean]

I have given very good advice to a number of people on how to appeal PCNs. And guess what, it's worked every time!

 

I am extremely careful where I park which is why I have had only six PCNs in my entire life and I've been driving for over 30 years. I paid two of them because I was in the wrong. I had overstayed my time on a meter, not deliberately but it was still my fault, so I paid up. I appealed the other four on various different grounds and they were all cancelled by the Council, not PATAS, but on almost every occasion it involved lengthy correspondence with the Council before they gave in. Other friends have followed my advice and had their tickets cancelled.

 

I've also had Congestion Charge Penalties cancelled and helped at least one person on CAG to do the same. She was very happy I gave her advice.

 

Thank you for providing the link to the statutory regulations. I'll certainly have a look if and when I need to; so far I've managed by using logic and common sense in my representations.

 

I cannot be bothered with this stupid discussion if you want to advise people not to use PATAS thats your choice, lets just hope that the first one that gets a visit from the baliffs is not going to blame you!

[Desperate Daniella]

They can use PATAS if they want. I expect most people would pay up if they lost and thought the bailiffs were coming. It is clear that if you can keep it with the Council the outcome might be better.

 

Also, with regard to unimatrix's query above, if you lose an appeal at PATAS I understand they usually expect you to pay the full penalty and not the discounted amount.

 

Remember carloblanco? She was faced with bailiffs and I don't remember you giving her much sympathy. She followed my advice and her congestion charge was cancelled.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?380438-Help-Needed-Please-Congestion-Charge!&highlight=carloblanco

[Jamberson]

They can use PATAS if they want.

 

Then why did you post this?

 

Don't agree to appeal to PATAS whatever you do.

[Desperate Daniella]

They can use PATAS if they want to. Of course they can.

 

The point I was making by saying that they should not agree to appeal to PATAS is that they are better off continuing to argue the toss with the Council and bat a few letters back and forth. I've done that and friends who have followed my advice have done that too. The penalties have been cancelled.

 

On the other hand I know people who have appealed to PATAS and PATAS have not accepted the appeal and the applicant has then had to pay the entire penalty, not the discounted rate.

 

I have a strategy which has worked well for a number of people. Why shouldn't I share it? Why are you all so against it? This site is about helping people in any way we can. Isn't it?

[Jamberson]

Well, your friends might have somehow got their PCNs cancelled by batting letters back and forth - although I can't see how - but if you're serious about helping people, then advise them that PATAS is there to make independent judgements on cases and is part of the appeals process. The council is, in effect the opposition - PATAS is impartial and is there for the motorist to take advantage of. Countless cases are won at PATAS all the time - far more than are won by batting letters back and forth with councils.

[Desperate Daniella]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then.

 

What I have done - successfully - is based on what I was told by someone who worked at PATAS. Very fortunately the first time I was considering making an appeal to PATAS I phoned them first and the very helpful young man I spoke to about the circumstances told me the appeal would automatically fail because it did not fall within the grounds they would consider. Therefore I didn't go on to PATAS but carried on arguing with the Council who eventually gave up and cancelled the ticket.

 

Obviously some people do win at PATAS but some don't and if you lose there you generally have to pay the whole charge and not the discounted amount, so as the Councils I know of offer the discounted rate until the correspondence has finished, surely it makes sense to exhaust that avenue first - and if you exhaust them enough they will often give up.

[Jamberson]

 

Obviously some people do win at PATAS but some don't and if you lose there you generally have to pay the whole charge and not the discounted amount, so as the Councils I know of offer the discounted rate until the correspondence has finished, surely it makes sense to exhaust that avenue first - and if you exhaust them enough they will often give up.

 

No offence, but I cannot believe that councils "offer the discounted rate until the correspondence has finished". The discount holds for 14 days, although it is usually extended until such time as an NTO is issued. Thereafter it is extremely unlikely the council will reinstate it, unless there has been some hiccup in procedure (eg you show evidence that you appealed, but they never received the letter).

 

Since you cannot take a case to adjudication until you have already had a full-charge Notice to Owner, appealed that full charge and had your appeal rejected - I just do not accept that by then the council will just say, OK, pay half. Sorry - I used to work on the inside, and it's just not something which would ever happen (why would it?).

 

I also can't accept that if you write to them enough times they "give up". That's not how it works! They will send out a flat refusal to discuss letter and you are advise to follow the statutory process. If you don't you end up with bailiffs being instructed. That's how it happens, and that's why adjudication is so valuable.

[Desperate Daniella]

Obviously I don't know what every council does, but here is Wandsworth's policy (from their website):

 

"If a letter or email contesting a PCN is received within the 14-day discount period, the discount will be re-offered if we decide to uphold the charge. However, the full amount of the PCN is due when the 14-day discount period has expired, so the full charge will be requested in cases where the PCN is upheld and informal representations were received outside the 14-day discount period."

 

So, provided you have contested the PCN within 14 days of issue you will be allowed to pay the discounted rate even if after correspondence they don't accept your appeal.

 

I have had "a flat refusal to discuss letter" and I wrote straight back and said they couldn't refuse to discuss it because (my catch 22 argument) .... and they decided to cancel the PCN.

 

On another occasion one traffic warden said I could park on a single yellow line at 6.50 p.m. - parking okay from 7.00 p.m. - because I was loading heavy boxes. I took a note of his number. It wasn't until I received the Notice to Owner that I realized one of his colleagues had issued a ticket but hadn't put in on the car. Sneaky! And they cancelled that one too and the very nice lady told me not to rely on the word of one warden in future.

 

Recently a friend of mine got a ticket for parking on the pavement in an area where three other cars were parked on the pavement at the same time and didn't get tickets. She had photos which she sent which they didn't accept. The council's argument was that it was "discretionary" in that particular street, which I was informed by a barrister friend of mine that it can't be. So my other friend wrote back for a second time and told them they couldn't be "discretionary" and they cancelled the ticket.

 

As I said above, if it has been my fault that I received a ticket (on two occasions) I have paid, but on the other four occasions they were all sorted out with letters to the relevant Councils. I'm sorry if you don't think that's how it works! It's worked for me and others.

 

Of course adjudication is valuable. I personally think it's better to challenge the council if, as above, you'll get it cancelled, or you'll pay half if they don't cancel it. Then if you wish you can go to PATAS but if you lose there you'll have to pay the whole amount.

[Jamberson]

You see, what you are describing is the appeals process. You cannot go to adjudication before you have appealed and lost the appeal. In your examples, the appeal was simply won, except the first one.

 

I don't really understand why the council cancelled the PCN which you said you didn't have grounds to contest at adjudication - but believe me, that is a very unusual thing to happen - so much so, I almost think they made a mistake! I really would never advise anyone to forgo adjudication if they have a chance. In your case you say that wasn't an option as you saw it - but if it was - take advantage of it!

 

Which PCNs got the discount reinstated?

[Desperate Daniella]

I've never had to pay any PCNs except the two I agreed were justified, but the lady I called about the warden giving me a ticket for loading said that even though I hadn't appealed the PCN in time, because I actually hadn't been given it by the sneaky warden, I would still be allowed the discount even if I lost because of the circumstances. Anyway, they cancelled it.

 

When I was told by PATAS that I didn't have the grounds to contest at adjudication because it wasn't one of the accepted grounds, I wrote to the Council and asked them how I was to appeal it, and they said that I had to appeal to PATAS, and I said I couldn't appeal to PATAS because PATAS had already said it would be thrown out automatically. Therefore although they were saying I had a right to appeal, I didn't in fact have one. So, unless they could give me someone else to appeal to then they were effectively denying me a right of appeal. I think they could see my point so they cancelled it.

 

The friend I mentioned who parked on the pavement and got her ticket cancelled did get another one where the correspondence went on for about two months and in the end she did pay it, but at the discounted rate, but I can't remember which borough that was, and she's not around at the moment to ask. Might have been somewhere in North London as she lives up there, but I'm really not certain.

 

Adjudication will help in many cases of course, but if you already know they are going to refuse your argument there is little point in going there. I did know they would turn me down which is why I challenged the council about my right of appeal.

[unimatrix1066]

update

received rejection notice and appeal via appeals service and a letter saying even though someone is in the vehicle they still will issue a ticket, i had said surely asking me to move on would have solved the obstruction

[Desperate Daniella]

Sorry, I knew you had appealed to the Council. This is their rejection, rather than PATAS?

[unimatrix1066]

is it worth appealing as you have to take a day off to do this and attend, which as i live in sussex is a pain

[Desperate Daniella]

Probably not if it's going to cost you more to do that than appeal. It really depends on how strongly you feel about it. I do think you are in the right. It is ludicrous that you cannot stop in a marked parking bay while you look at the sign giving the parking times.

[Jamberson]

I'm pretty sure that the adjudication hearings are arranged at locations local to you, not local to the council. You might want to ask PATAS to confirm that, but if they are, and I presume you get anual leave from work, it might be worth taking half a day's holiday. Your decision of course.

[Desperate Daniella]

Especially if you can get the CCTV footage to back you up.

[Michael Browne]

All PATAS personal hearings are at the Angel, Islington, but you can opt for a postal hearing. Unlike TPT, PATAS do not offer telephone hearings

[Jamberson]

So even if you live hundreds of miles away, you have to apply to PATAS and go down to London? I would be surprised if that is the case, but I don't know.

[green_and_mean]

update

received rejection notice and appeal via appeals service and a letter saying even though someone is in the vehicle they still will issue a ticket, i had said surely asking me to move on would have solved the obstruction

 

Did you mention you wasn't outside 18 as stated on the PCN?