PCN Wimbledon Village

[unimatrix1066]

I ve received a PCN for parked/waiting/unloading in wimbledon village high st via a camera in a car behind me.

i think i should fight it as i parked in a pay and display bay and got out after a minute to get a ticket, but found the signs nearby restrict parking only to 10am - 4pm.

Obvioulsly until i got out i did not know this and moved once i found i could not park here.

anywhere I ve parked is usually 0830 on wards, and not being from london I am not familiar with this.

is it worth fighting or just pay up.

I noticed in the picture it shows a bay with a single yellow line through which is a bit confusing also.

[sailor sam]

What was the contravention on the PCN? Also, can you give us the location?

 

Please Note

 

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[unimatrix1066]

hi

yes the notice is 02J parked or loading/unloading in a restricted st where waiting and loading/ unloading restrications are in force( camera enforcement)

location high st os18 from 0912-0913

this is outside the lloyds bank in the village

cheers

[sailor sam]

As you say, signs indicate that no waiting/loading prior to 10am Mon to Sat. If you are still in the discounted period, then appeal stating as soon as you saw the sign and realised, you moved straight away. Not sure it will work but you have nothing to loose by appealing within the discount period.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

Post a copy of the PCN there maybe technical issues with the paperwork.

[unimatrix1066]

cheers for ill give it a go

[Desperate Daniella]

Don't agree to appeal to PATAS whatever you do. They only have nine grounds of appeal and this isn't one of them.

 

It would be very unreasonable not to allow someone to stop in a parking bay in order to check the parking restrictions which is what you were doing. As soon as you realized your mistake you drove on.

 

I always find, and have advised friends to do the same successfully, that if you drag out the correspondence and refuse to take no for an answer then 80% of the time the local council will back down. Do make sure it is a very long letter going into great detail - about two and a half pages is good.

 

If they do tell you to appeal to PATAS come back and I'll give you my Catch 22 argument on that.

 

DD

[green_and_mean]

Was the camera car there when you parked or did it arrive afterwards?

[Jamberson]

Don't agree to appeal to PATAS whatever you do. They only have nine grounds of appeal and this isn't one of them.

 

In my experience, PATAS do not apply stringent limits on what sort of arguments you can present. The grounds are specified to guide the case, and if you argue outside of those, I don't know that it matters. Have you heard of PATAS refusing to consider cases because they do not fit one of the grounds?

[unimatrix1066]

[ATTACH]43964[/ATTACH]

hi

heres the pcn copy.

as to the car that took the photo pic looks like someone was sitting in the passengers seat taking photos with a camera.

i was not aware of a car when i stopped , might not have any markings

[green_and_mean]

OS 18 is on the opposite side of the road to the bank are you sure you parked on the bank side?

[Desperate Daniella]

In my experience, PATAS do not apply stringent limits on what sort of arguments you can present. The grounds are specified to guide the case, and if you argue outside of those, I don't know that it matters. Have you heard of PATAS refusing to consider cases because they do not fit one of the grounds?

 

I was told by someone who worked at PATAS that they automatically dismiss any appeals that do not meet one of the specified nine grounds of appeal, as shown on their website. From the horse's mouth, so to speak.......

 

That is the Catch 22. They say you have a right of appeal, but if it isn't on one of those grounds you actually don't. Of course if you point out to the council that they are in fact denying you a right of appeal then they usually back down.

[green_and_mean]

I was told by someone who worked at PATAS that they automatically dismiss any appeals that do not meet one of the specified nine grounds of appeal, as shown on their website. From the horse's mouth, so to speak.......

 

That is the Catch 22. They say you have a right of appeal, but if it isn't on one of those grounds you actually don't. Of course if you point out to the council that they are in fact denying you a right of appeal then they usually back down.

 

Complete tosh, the law defines the grounds of appeal if you do not meet them then you are liable for the PCN. The grounds are comprehensive and cover all likely reasons you may not be liable so I fail to see how you are denied a right of appeal.

[Desperate Daniella]

So which ground does unimatrix appeal under?

[unimatrix1066]

i am sure i was parked by the bank as thats the side with the bays and you can see the bank in the picture

[green_and_mean]

So which ground does unimatrix appeal under?

 

Contravention did not take place if he did only stop to check the sign, otherwise their seems to be no other grounds of appeal other than mitigation which the Council can consider but not PATAS as its not down to them to use discretion on behalf of the Council which would have already considered it. If none of the grounds of appeal are available to the appeallant then they are liable for the PCN that is clearly stated in the statute. If the contravention did occur, you were the owner, it wasn't parked without your consent and you haven't already paid it, what else would exempt you from paying the penalty??

[green_and_mean]

i am sure i was parked by the bank as thats the side with the bays and you can see the bank in the picture

 

Personally I would view the video first but if thats not practical appeal on the grounds the contravention did not take place because a) you only parked long enough to check the signs, b) you parked outside TSB which is 86 the High St

 

 

Can you PM me your VRM so I can view the photos online?

[Kiki1]

Contravention did not take place if he did only stop to check the sign, otherwise their seems to be no other grounds of appeal other than mitigation which the Council can consider but not PATAS as its not down to them to use discretion on behalf of the Council which would have already considered it. If none of the grounds of appeal are available to the appeallant then they are liable for the PCN that is clearly stated in the statute. If the contravention did occur, you were the owner, it wasn't parked without your consent and you haven't already paid it, what else would exempt you from paying the penalty??

 

 

The issue with PATAS often stems from their adjudication being suspect, and in some cases online the adjudicator has either missed out a pertinent fact, or has agreed the Council stance for rejection being appropriate, without giving a legislative reason.

 

Quite often the Bulk centre (Northampton ?) will reject the Councils (and PATAS) ruling but this does not cancel the PCN, and then you get into Charge Certification and bailiffs, even though the process has been deemed to be flawed.

 

The LGO will not be contactable either in a case where an appeal has been lodged at the PATAS stage.

[unimatrix1066]

hi

i have insuffient posts to PM you

Do you have an email

Cheers

[Desperate Daniella]

Contravention did not take place if he did only stop to check the sign, otherwise their seems to be no other grounds of appeal other than mitigation which the Council can consider but not PATAS as its not down to them to use discretion on behalf of the Council which would have already considered it. If none of the grounds of appeal are available to the appeallant then they are liable for the PCN that is clearly stated in the statute. If the contravention did occur, you were the owner, it wasn't parked without your consent and you haven't already paid it, what else would exempt you from paying the penalty??

 

Which is exactly why I am saying an appeal to PATAS won't work here, and my Catch 22 argument has worked very well for me and for others in that we haven't had to pay the fine, so I don't see why you are dismissing it as "complete tosh."

[green_and_mean]

Which is exactly why I am saying an appeal to PATAS won't work here, and my Catch 22 argument has worked very well for me and for others in that we haven't had to pay the fine, so I don't see why you are dismissing it as "complete tosh."

 

Because there is no catch 22, I don't think I disagree with the law is a grounds to cancel?

[Desperate Daniella]

Of course there is a Catch 22. Not every reason for appeal can be put in a little box and labelled. Why should someone who sees a parking space, pulls in and checks the restrictions, then moves on when they realise they can't park there, have to pay a fine? Why should there be only nine grounds on which people can appeal and if they dare to suggest other mitigating circumstances then their appeal is actually thrown out?

[unimatrix1066]

I was thinking of paying it , I ve already sent the appeal this morning or will submitting the appeal stop the 21 days discount.

I don't want to pay them as there just raising cash for the council and not enforcing the parking restrictions otherwise the guy in the car could have asked to move

[Desperate Daniella]

Who have you appealed to? The council or PATAS?

[green_and_mean]

Of course there is a Catch 22. Not every reason for appeal can be put in a little box and labelled. Why should someone who sees a parking space, pulls in and checks the restrictions, then moves on when they realise they can't park there, have to pay a fine? Why should there be only nine grounds on which people can appeal and if they dare to suggest other mitigating circumstances then their appeal is actually thrown out?

 

The Council can accept mitigation but PATAS will only rule on the law and as I have already stated stopping to read the signs is covered in the statutary grounds of appeal. You still have not explained what reason other than the contravention not occuring, not being the owner, having already paid and procedural impropriety that would be valid grounds to appeal and yet is not on the list??