Can my former boss do this.

[jackson15]

This is very similar to another thread on here. My former employer is making a claim against me in the County Court for damage to one of his vehicles which I was driving during my normal course of duties. He wants me to pay £700 damages of which £150 he has already taken out of my final months wages. Below is an extract from my contract of employment which I have signed. When I signed it he wanted 8 signatures from me on 8 different sheets. On the document below of which there is an extract of the wording. He said it was if I incurred any motoring offences speeding etc. it would be my responsibility and also see the paragraph below in bold, re any accidental damage of which I agreed and duly signed without reading the full document

Driving Rules and Regulations

Whilst in the employment of the Company any motor offences ie. Speeding, Parking or similar offences are your responsibility and not that of the Company.

Any accidental damage to Company vehicles or any other vehicle whilst in your control, which is found to be through your poor driving, will be your responsibility and you will be held liable for any costs in respect of repairs to one or both vehicles which will be deducted from your wages, and any subsequent claim made by a third party.

I didn't read the part about being responsible for any damage to his vehicles. Should I contest this and make a counter claim for my £150. Any advice will be gratefully received.

[ericsbrother]

Specifically, motoring offences are your responsibility so the company will never get fined for speeding or the like.

The critical bit is the words "through your poor driving". Have you been found by a court to have been driving at a standard below what is acceptable to the law?

No court would allow the the part about consequential losses as the company has insurance for that and that is the law. I would tell them that any loss wasnt due to legally definable carelessness and you want your salary back otherwise you are claiming for unlawful deduction of pay.

So you need to counterclaim on the form that you return to court citing the unlawful deduction and as no proof of poor driving has been offered by a competent authority and deny the rest of the claim.

[queensclose]

you haven't told us how you did the damage

[leonmassey]

Have you been proved to driving poorly, if not the even by the companies own highly suspect contract clause they cannot deduct or withhold wages.

[jackson15]

I was in a traffic jam on the M6 for over 4 hours the traffic was crawling the car in front stopped and I hit him I wasn't doing more than 5 or 6 mph. The police said for us to sort it out between us as the damage was minimal. The accident was my fault although I did not admit it at the time. Damage to my number plate and a dent and crack in the rear bumper of a new BMW 118D.

[queensclose]

it was an accident pure and simple stuck in a traffic jam 4 hrs without a break. wait for the court papers and counter claim and get your wages back at the same time. wouldn,t worry to much about the contract. its not classed as poor driving. doubt it would have stood up anyway

 

when the papers come post details of the claim

[jackson15]

Would I be able to put in a counter claim for my wages and costs.

[jackson15]

it was an accident pure and simple stuck in a traffic jam 4 hrs without a break. wait for the court papers and counter claim and get your wages back at the same time. wouldn,t worry to much about the contract. its not classed as poor driving. doubt it would have stood up anyway

 

when the papers come post details of the claim

 

Here is what my former boss wrote on his claim form word for word.

 

 

At 3.30pm on 6th July 2012 while driving a Ford Fiesta Van on M6 between J9 and J10 southbound he(meaning me) collided with the rear of a stationary vehicle BMW (Reg No.) Driven by (Drivers name) causing rear end damage to his vehicle. Mr (My name) made one payment out of his wages. (He’s attached a copy of my pay slip to the claim form).

But has not made any further payment to cover THE FULL cost of repairs £448.37p plus costs of £50.00.

Total cost of repairs to BMW motor car. Invoice enclosed for £598.37 less 1st payment made by Mr (My name) of £150 (copy of wage slip enclosed) leaves outstanding balance of £448.37p Numerous attempts have been made by myself to Mr (My name) by phone also personal visits to his home. But no monies have been paid. Even though he is working he point blank refuses to pay all monies owed.

Travelling costs have been included covering visits costs + £50.00

[Hacked_Off]

So he's essentially lied on the forms by saying you made a payment, when in fact it was taken from you without agreement!! tut tut

[jackson15]

So he's essentially lied on the forms by saying you made a payment, when in fact it was taken from you without agreement!! tut tut

 

Yes I left the company at the end of July last year. My wages were paid into my bank account on 1st Friday in August which was the 5th. I checked my account and the money seemed about right and thought my payslip would've been posted to me. It wasn't until I was served with the claim form last week with my wage slip attached that I knew he had taken £150 out of my wages.

[steampowered]

My honest first impression is that you are liable for this. Failing to read the contract is no excuse, you are deemed to agree to contracts you sign. I also do not think there is any doubt that this is poor driving - at the end of the day you drove into the back of someone in a traffic jam, there is no doubt the accident was your fault. I don't blame you for drifting off when you were tired and stuck in an awful traffic jam, I've done the same thing, but its still poor driving. I can't really think of any sensible legal argument to contest liability or counterclaim for the unpaid wages.

 

You might be able to contest the level of damages. If the £700 only relates to your company's van, that sounds rather a lot for damage to a numberplate. You could argue that the level of costs incurred by your employer were unreasonable if you have some good reasons to justify this argument.

 

Do you know why this was not covered by insurance? Often you see that insurance pays for the damage and the employee to cover any excess? If you don't know then you need to write to your boss to try and find out, but don't miss the deadline for filing your defence whatever you do.

[jackson15]

My honest first impression is that you are liable for this. Failing to read the contract is no excuse, you are deemed to agree to contracts you sign. I also do not think there is any doubt that this is poor driving - at the end of the day you drove into the back of someone in a traffic jam, there is no doubt the accident was your fault. I don't blame you for drifting off when you were tired and stuck in an awful traffic jam, I've done the same thing, but its still poor driving. I can't really think of any sensible legal argument to contest liability or counterclaim for the unpaid wages.

 

You might be able to contest the level of damages. If the £700 only relates to your company's van, that sounds rather a lot for damage to a numberplate. You could argue that the level of costs incurred by your employer were unreasonable if you have some good reasons to justify this argument.

 

Do you know why this was not covered by insurance? Often you see that insurance pays for the damage and the employee to cover any excess? If you don't know then you need to write to your boss to try and find out, but don't miss the deadline for filing your defence whatever you do.

 

Hi SP the main damage was to the bumper of the BMW which was just a dent and a crack. I realise that I should have read the contract but after signing, it that was the last time I saw it. I don't see it fair that even though I was covered by my employers insurance I should be held liable for any damage, what if I had hit an expensive vehicle and written it off would I still be expected/able to cover the cost of the damage. Will his contract stand up in a court of law? I don't know, if I do nothing I will have to pay if I contest I will soon find out. I have nothing to lose,

[queensclose]

employers are allowed to add bolt ons to contracts. but must be deemed to be a fair contract. it could be seen to be a fair bolt on. but what would you deem as poor driving. stuck in traffic 4 hours slight bump. who would class it as poor driving. the very use of word poor driving is a bad start for the boss

i doubt the employer has a leg to stand. plus the employer has total disregard for employment law making illegal deductions

 

my advice wait till the claim comes through and post the details on this site it would be interesting to see he particulars of the claim

 

What is Bad Driving?

There is no statutory definition of bad driving, but there are a number of general offences covered by this guidance that directly concern or may relate to the way in which a vehicle is driven. These are:

 

murder;

manslaughter;

causing death by dangerous driving;

causing death by careless driving while under the influence of drink or drugs;

dangerous driving;

causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving;

causing death by driving whilst unlicensed;

uninsured or disqualified;

careless or inconsiderate driving;

wanton and furious driving; and

aggravated vehicle taking

[jackson15]

Here is what my former boss wrote on his claim form word for word.

 

 

At 3.30pm on 6th July 2012 while driving a Ford Fiesta Van on M6 between J9 and J10 southbound he(meaning me) collided with the rear of a stationary vehicle BMW (Reg No.) Driven by (Drivers name) causing rear end damage to his vehicle. Mr (My name) made one payment out of his wages. (He’s attached a copy of my pay slip to the claim form).

But has not made any further payment to cover THE FULL cost of repairs £448.37p plus costs of £50.00.

Total cost of repairs to BMW motor car. Invoice enclosed for £598.37 less 1st payment made by Mr (My name) of £150 (copy of wage slip enclosed) leaves outstanding balance of £448.37p Numerous attempts have been made by myself to Mr (My name) by phone also personal visits to his home. But no monies have been paid. Even though he is working he point blank refuses to pay all monies owed.

Travelling costs have been included covering visits costs + £50.00

 

Hi Queensclose here is my former employers claim word for word from his claim form.

[queensclose]

is this from the court claim form

[jackson15]

Yes this is what he wrote on the claim form which was sent to me.

[queensclose]

when did it arrive.

 

you need to counter claim

 

i dispute the claim

the claimant is claiming £xxxx which was covered by an insurance policy but refused you make a claim because he believes my driving was poor.

 

the accident occurred because blah blah blah traffic had been bumper to bumper for four hours and under pressure from my employer to maintain schedule (any phone calls from your employer were are you would help) i maintained my driving to a high standard but sadly just as traffic started to flow the car in front braked hard and i collided and was treated as an accident. their have been no charges by the police

 

my employer feels that it amounted to poor driving. which i dispute

i counter-claim for the £150 which was deducted out of my wages without my consent

[jackson15]

I was on a 900 mile round trip by the time I got home I'd been out over 20 hours. My boss had phoned a few times before the accident to see where I was. The reason for the traffic jam was torrential rain in the midlands and it was just nose to tail from Lancaster South Services hence the 4 hours.

The claim was served on me on 18th April, I've posted the acknowledgement today and indicated that I intend to dispute the claim and make a counterclaim which gives me an extra 14 days to get my case together.

[steampowered]

Hi SP the main damage was to the bumper of the BMW which was just a dent and a crack. I realise that I should have read the contract but after signing, it that was the last time I saw it. I don't see it fair that even though I was covered by my employers insurance I should be held liable for any damage, what if I had hit an expensive vehicle and written it off would I still be expected/able to cover the cost of the damage. Will his contract stand up in a court of law? I don't know, if I do nothing I will have to pay if I contest I will soon find out. I have nothing to lose,

 

I see. As it is third party damage surely this is covered by the insurance policy. The employer is obliged to "mitigate his loss" so I imagine you should be liable for the excess but not the full whack. Employer may argue this would increase his premiums but cross that road when you come to it.

[johnny10hands]

Presuming that you were not set up an an over-nighter (i.e arranged accommodation then being expected to do a 900 mile round trip in one working day is, in my view, beyond what should be reasonably expected in a vehicle without a sleeper cab. Given the mileage, did your employer do a risk assessment of such a long journey? Were you under pressure to get to your destination? what about getting back? In my view, if you had a bump due to you being tired then H&S for drivers does come into play and as such, your employer shares an element of responsibility. Where I work, on such journeys and where a back-up driver is not available, Either our admin team will book accommodation or the Engineer will book his own.

[jackson15]

It was my day off the previous day and I got a phone call at 7pm that evening from my boss asking me to report for work at midnight telling me that I had to be in Glasgow for 8am the following morning a journey of approx 450 miles each way, being as I was driving a Ford Focus Estate there is no tacho and I was able to drive without compulsory breaks. One of the reasons why I left the company was the total disregard for safety, I was paid on the mileage so if there was any delay ie traffic jam, delay in dropping off no forklift driver available etc. I was only paid the milage so a 300 mile round trip which would normally take say 7 hrs might take 10 hrs. Where I would be effectively be being paid below the national minimum wage.

[ericsbrother]

All this should be in your counterclaim when you need to give a full written response. These circumstances will almost certainly get round the "poor driving" clause in your contract and I would be looking at the possibility of taking advice for breaches of the minimum wage, working time regulations etc. You will be best served pursuing that at an employmeny tribunal as they are set up for that purpose but you can use the small claims court so add the value of the breaches to your counterclaim.

[jackson15]

I've got an appointment with a solicitor on Fri morning will keep you all posted.

[jackson15]

My apologies for the delay in getting back to you my solicitor cancelled last Fri and I have an appointment tomorrow morning. I will keep you posted on how it goes.

[StageD]

I can have an educated guess that the reason you're being held liable for the full amount of damage is to keep the insurance cost of the company down. I used to work for a Taxi company, and the boss would say to his own drivers that if they had an accident then they would be responsible for any claims that were settled without insurers being involved, i.e (relatively) low cost claims. This worked well for the company as a whole, as the Company Drivers had an incentive not to crash (other than the usual obviously) and the Owner Drivers 'rent' was kept down as well because the total company costs were kept low.

This worked until there were about 4 accidents that happened within about 2 weeks, all fairly high amounts, and the boss had to basically sack 14 or so drivers because his fleet insurance skyrocketed and it wasn't viable to do it anymore.