IRCAS penalty fare, should I pay?

[chunderitis]

17/09/2012 I traveled on the train from Ipswich to Loughborough via Ely. I had both tickets and my young persons railcard with me.

 

On the Ipswich to Ely leg of the journey I couldn't find my railcard straight away. Explaining that I had no money or cards with money on them the ticket inspector confiscated my tickets and made me sign a penalty fare (from Ipswich to Ely only) for not having a railcard. Cost £11.80 Had he gave me more time I would have located my railcard. (which I found on the 2nd leg of my journey)

 

From Ely to Loughborough the ticket inspectors saw my penalty fare and didn't ask any questions. However when I got to the Loughborough train station they wouldn't let me out. They took my penalty fare notice off me without my consent and photocopied it. I wasn't issued a second penalty fare.

 

When I got home I appealed against the penalty fare, however I was denied. I also received another letter from the IRCAS saying I owed them £40.80 presumably for not having any tickets in Loughborough.

 

I don't think they can charge me for the 2nd leg as I never officially got a penalty fare. And I don't think they can charge me for the 1st leg as I had a valid ticket and a railcard (despite not being able to find it at the time). Should I refuse to pay? What are my chances in court, if it goes that far?

 

Thanks

[honeybee13]

17/09/2012 I traveled on the train from Ipswich to Loughborough via Ely. I had both tickets and my young persons railcard with me.

 

On the Ipswich to Ely leg of the journey I couldn't find my railcard straight away. Explaining that I had no money or cards with money on them the ticket inspector confiscated my tickets and made me sign a penalty fare (from Ipswich to Ely only) for not having a railcard. Cost £11.80 Had he gave me more time I would have located my railcard. (which I found on the 2nd leg of my journey)

 

From Ely to Loughborough the ticket inspectors saw my penalty fare and didn't ask any questions. However when I got to the Loughborough train station they wouldn't let me out. They took my penalty fare notice off me without my consent and photocopied it. I wasn't issued a second penalty fare.

 

When I got home I appealed against the penalty fare, however I was denied. I also received another letter from the IRCAS saying I owed them £40.80 presumably for not having any tickets in Loughborough.

 

I don't think they can charge me for the 2nd leg as I never officially got a penalty fare. And I don't think they can charge me for the 1st leg as I had a valid ticket and a railcard (despite not being able to find it at the time). Should I refuse to pay? What are my chances in court, if it goes that far?

 

Thanks

 

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

That does sound a little tough, but I think the rules stipulate that you need to show a valid travel card if you're travelling on a discounted ticket.

 

Please could you tell us what the charge is that IRCAS have cited against you, for instance law or byelaw?

 

I hope the forum guys will be along later with advice for you, but in the meantime any extra information you can give may be helpful.

 

My best, HB

[Old-CodJA]

17/09/2012 I traveled on the train from Ipswich to Loughborough via Ely. I had both tickets and my young persons railcard with me.

 

On the Ipswich to Ely leg of the journey I couldn't find my railcard straight away. Explaining that I had no money or cards with money on them the ticket inspector confiscated my tickets and made me sign a penalty fare (from Ipswich to Ely only) for not having a railcard. Cost £11.80 Had he gave me more time I would have located my railcard. (which I found on the 2nd leg of my journey)

 

From Ely to Loughborough the ticket inspectors saw my penalty fare and didn't ask any questions. However when I got to the Loughborough train station they wouldn't let me out. They took my penalty fare notice off me without my consent and photocopied it. I wasn't issued a second penalty fare.

 

When I got home I appealed against the penalty fare, however I was denied. I also received another letter from the IRCAS saying I owed them £40.80 presumably for not having any tickets in Loughborough.

 

I don't think they can charge me for the 2nd leg as I never officially got a penalty fare. And I don't think they can charge me for the 1st leg as I had a valid ticket and a railcard (despite not being able to find it at the time). Should I refuse to pay? What are my chances in court, if it goes that far?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

If I have read your post correctly, it seems that you were issued a Penalty Fare Notice for a journey between Ipswich & Ely on Greater Anglia. The inspector retained your original tickets, but you continued onward to Loughborough having changed trains at either Ely or Peterborough.

 

Some important questions arise at this point.

 

1. What journey was your original ticket made out for, the one the inspector kept, I am assuming that it was issued for the whole journey from Ipswich to Loughborough, is that correct?

 

2. Was the Penalty Fare notice made out for the whole journey from Ipswich to Loughborough or only as far as Ely?

 

Your Penalty Fare Notice would have given instruction that it must be paid, or successfully appealed within 21 days. That means it should have been paid by 08th October if an appeal was rejected. Following that date, if it remained unpaid you would then receive a demand for payment from IRCAS that includes their administration charges as advised on the Notice and it seems likely that this will be the total amount of the demand that you have received. This includes the fare due.

 

There is no Penalty Fare scheme in place between Ely & Loughborough and if you were reported for having no valid ticket by Cross Country staff, this will normally be processed as a breach of Byelaw or attempted fare evasion as appropriate.

 

3. What exactly were you told at Loughborough when the photo-copy of the Penalty Fare Notice was taken?

 

Your consent to that action is not necessary nor relevant, it seems that you were offering the Notice as your ticket for travel. The traveller has a strict liability obligation to present a valid ticket when asked in accordance with National Railway Byelaws.

 

4. After your appeal was rejected, did you pay the original Penalty Fare demand and if not, why not, or what further action did you take?

 

Sadly, I can only conclude that from the limited information in your original post it seems that you would be unlikely to win any case if charged with a strict liability offence, but if you can provide more detailed answers that view may change.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Old-CodJA