NatWest OD facility letters

[Ford]

as suggested post #48, to take advantage of code re interest concessions/repayment plan would usually require evidenced financial difficulties. as rob says, some might do things over the phone/informally on word re a short term concession at some stage, but as rob says would need to get them to confirm the arrangement. also, note any poss default consequences.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Ford

[pj2017]

I sent the SAR request to the Gogarburn address by recorded delivery and they signed for it on 17th September. I know it will be a while yet before I hear back from them. But I asked the Post Office today if my postal order for £10 had been cashed - and the answer was no.

 

Is this a problem? Does it show NatWest are going to be difficult? Or will they only cash it when they have assembled my SAR materials to send out to me? Any ideas anyone?

[Mike_hawk]

Cheques and PO's go to one desk, request to another...... of course they'll be looking for a reason not to comply within the timescale. They are in a shambles and taking upwards of 4 months to respond with further delaying tactics.

 

Send a polite and tempered reminder to Joyce and Margaret that you expect compliance within the 40 days

 

Why did you ignore the Bishopsate address I posted for you?

[pj2017]

Cheques and PO's go to one desk, request to another...... of course they'll be looking for a reason not to comply within the timescale. They are in a shambles and taking upwards of 4 months to respond with further delaying tactics.

 

Send a polite and tempered reminder to Joyce and Margaret that you expect compliance within the 40 days

 

Why did you ignore the Bishopsate address I posted for you?

 

 

Mike, I'm sorry for ignoring your advice. I was in a quandary about which address to use, as the Bishopsgate address is the one registered with the data people, but Natwest on their site (http://www.natwest.com/popup/global/legals.ashx) say to use the Edinburgh address for SAR requests.

 

I wonder if they will now be able to use the fact that I didn't send it to Bishopsgate as an excuse not to respond? Even though their website says to send it to Edinburgh.

 

I am not sure who Joyce and Margaret are.

 

Thanks for your help - I do appreciate your taking time to answer.

[pj2017]

Mike, I am within my OD limit (an odd figure I don't recall how it was arrived at - I didn't ask for this limit), but I have stopped using the account and sent the card back, and this month, probably on Friday, they will take interest out which will push me into unauthorised territory. I have already written to them asking to freeze interest and charges for six months while I try to make money so that I have a chance of reducing the amount outstanding - I think this was a reasonable request to just ask for temporary help. So if they take 4 months replying to an SAR request, how am I meant to deal with the fact that they will be contacting me in the next few days telling me I have gone into unauthorised territory?

 

The only thing I can say is that I will only be in unauthorised territory, not due to my own spending, but due to their charges, and that I need to wait for the SAR materials to arrive before I can comment further?

[Mike_hawk]

At post #19

 

From: Tudor, Joyce \(Retail Compliance, UK Retail\) RBS.co.uk>

0131 626 1669

 

From: Mackenzie, Margaret (Risk, UK Retail) margaret.mackenzie@rbs.co .uk

0131 626 0734

 

Both responsible for data compliance

 

Just send a short e-mail with your name and sar request date in the subject heading, state you have made a sar at xx date, find it strange that the request was recorded signed for at xx date but the fee has yet to be encashed and you would appreciate the banks compliance with your request and the dpa within the 40 day statutory period.

[Mike_hawk]

Mike, I am within my OD limit (an odd figure I don't recall how it was arrived at - I didn't ask for this limit), but I have stopped using the account and sent the card back, and this month, probably on Friday, they will take interest out which will push me into unauthorised territory. I have already written to them asking to freeze interest and charges for six months while I try to make money so that I have a chance of reducing the amount outstanding - I think this was a reasonable request to just ask for temporary help. So if they take 4 months replying to an SAR request, how am I meant to deal with the fact that they will be contacting me in the next few days telling me I have gone into unauthorised territory?

 

The only thing I can say is that I will only be in unauthorised territory, not due to my own spending, but due to their charges, and that I need to wait for the SAR materials to arrive before I can comment further?

 

e-mail Gary [or ring him and follow up with an e-mail], the question you have to ask yourself is if you were responsible at GCS level and had a question mark over whether the business had acted fairly and in accordance with BCOBS how would you react to a request such as yours?

 

Ask him to intervene, he may not personally reply but he will make sure something is done.

[pj2017]

e-mail Gary [or ring him and follow up with an e-mail], the question you have to ask yourself is if you were responsible at GCS level and had a question mark over whether the business had acted fairly and in accordance with BCOBS how would you react to a request such as yours?

 

Ask him to intervene, he may not personally reply but he will make sure something is done.

 

Thanks Mike. I have just emailed Joyce. Do you think I should wait for NatWest to tell me I have gone into unauthorised OD or proactively email him today? I am sorry to bother you with these questions.

[Mike_hawk]

I prefer to act rather than react........ post a draft of what you want to say on here and I'll take a look with you tomorrow to see if we can tweak it at all.

[pj2017]

Dear Mr Stewart,

 

Re: Natwest account no. X

 

I have been a customer of NatWest for many years, but have now for many months in succession been deep into overdraft on an account (number given above) that I am no longer using for any purpose, and the debit card for which I recently cut up and sent to NatWest's Birmingham Collections Centre. I have already paid hundreds of pounds of interest on this account over the past year.

 

I am concerned that the account is effectively dormant, but I cannot close it without a nil balance (according to a bank employee in my local branch), and although I am not using it I will incur constant charges and interest.

 

I am at the moment within the limit, but later this week when interest is added by NatWest it will take the account into unauthorised overdraft territory.

 

I wrote last week to the Birmingham Collections Centre, enclosing the card in pieces, asking for charges and interest to be frozen for six months to give me time to make money to get on top of this - but I have received no reply. I also phoned to let them know the letter was on its way - and the lady I spoke to told me there was definitely zero chance that charges and interest would be frozen because I had not included an income and expenditure form. But I did briefly outline my circumstances in the letter and explain that I would try to pay something off over the next six months, and would be willing for the account to be frozen for six months, and then revert to a much lower overdraft limit thereafter, thus giving me a fixed timeframe to make progress in paying off debt.

 

The reason I am emailing you is that I submitted a Subject Access Request, asking for all information on the account, on September 17th, and NatWest will have 40 days to reply, but the materials I need will arrive way too late for me to use them in my response to any letters that NatWest send me telling me I have gone into unauthorised overdraft, not due to my own spending, but purely as a result of interest and charges on a dormant account.

 

I made clear in the letter to NatWest that was not responded to that I do not recall asking for the level of overdraft I have (it is an odd figure), and that I do not recall agreeing to terms and conditions allowing retrospective unilateral variation of interest on an already built-up debt, and that I do not recall agreeing ever that the account could not be closed without a nil balance, and that a dormant account could be constantly stung with interest and charges apparently forever. Of course, I am hoping the Subject Access Request will clarify these points by giving me copies of the original terms and conditions and all overdraft facility letters.

 

For these reasons, I think that a request to suspend interest and charges for six months, allowing me to get on top of the (otherwise dormant) account, and possibly reverting to a much lower level of authorised overdraft thereafter, is not an unreasonable request.

 

As it is, I am facing a constant stream of letters and calls starting soon about having gone into unauthorised overdraft, purely as a result of interest and charges.

 

Is it possible for you to look into this and arrange for interest and charges to be frozen immediately - preferably before interest is taken out over the next few days, pushing me into unauthorised territory - and I will make a concerted attempt to get on top of this account over the next few months?

 

Thanks for your attention.

Edited September 26, 2012 by pj2

[Mike_hawk]

Dear Gary,

 

Re: Natwest account no. X

 

I appreciate that your time is pressed in the absence of Aileen but trust that you will be able to give some consideration to my current predicament

 

I have been a customer of NatWest for many years, unfortunately and for far too many months in succession I find that I have been deeply indebted to the overdraft facility linked to current account (number given above) which I am no longer using for any purpose. The debit card for which I recently, and on request, cut up and sent to NatWest's Birmingham Collections Centre.

 

I am concerned that the account is effectively dormant, but I cannot close it without a nil balance (according to a bank employee in my local branch), and although I am not using it I will incur increased compounding of charges and interest.

 

Due to xxxx [...... unemployment, reduced salary.... etc] I find myself unable to comply with the demands of the facility and indeed without your timely intervention will no doubt face additional charges and interest added by NatWest taking the account into unauthorised overdraft territory.

 

For these reasons, I have requested that in treating me fairly the imposition of charges and interest are frozen for a minimum period of 6 months, allowing me to get on top of the (otherwise dormant) account, and possibly reverting to a much lower level of authorised overdraft thereafter. Whilst I do not believe this is an unreasonable request it is proving difficult to establish a remedy whilst the banks collections regime is seemingly unable to agree.

 

I accept that the business must first make a decision at profit centre level but would request your earliest intervention in arranging for interest and charges to be frozen immediately - preferably before interest is taken out over the next few days, pushing me into unauthorised territory - and I will make a concerted attempt to get on top of this account over the next few months.

 

I trust that the above is in order and look forward to your soonest response. Should you wish to discuss matters prior to further written engagement I would be happy to call you at your convenience.

 

Regards

 

.............

[pj2017]

Mike, thank you very much. I will do it like that - and let the forum know what transpires!

[Mike_hawk]

You can but try, doesnt make much sense to make demands if you are asking for fair treatment...... you can save that for later if the request falls on deaf ears

[pj2017]

Mike - I have now emailed Joyce and Gary - and await replies. Funny that Joyce's email is rbs.co.uk, but Gary's is rbs.com, but the email addresses I have written do exist, as they did not ping back! Thanks for your help.

[Mike_hawk]

Nothing particularly unusual, most large business' try to tie up the .net, .com, .co.uk extensions to prevent anyone setting up external mail accounts for suspect purposes. They'll have received them, whether they respond or act on them is another matter.........

[Ford]

.. I was in a quandary about which address to use, as the Bishopsgate address is the one registered with the data people, but Natwest on their site (http://www.natwest.com/popup/global/legals.ashx) say to use the Edinburgh address for SAR requests.

 

I wonder if they will now be able to use the fact that I didn't send it to Bishopsgate as an excuse not to respond? Even though their website says to send it to Edinburgh.

 

.

 

don't worry, you did as their site says! consumer is not expected to do any more!

they can't use that as an excuse because they have specifically stated in their terms to send sar requests to edinburgh! if it goes wrong, then complain. poss compensation.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Ford

[pj2017]

I got a reply from GAry Stewart - or at least a reply that said my email had been passed to Stephen Hester's office saying:

 

We are sorry to hear of the problems you have encountered recently. In view of your comments, we have asked for a full briefing from those involved. Once this is received, your complaint will be allocated to a case manager who will be in touch within the next two weeks.

 

We will aim to get a response out to you as soon as we can but we also want to make sure that a thorough investigation takes place. If, for any reason, there looks like being a delay, we will, of course, write to you again to explain why.

[Mike_hawk]

That's a standard template response but with the added benefit that the instruction has been passed down from higher up the foodchain.

 

Give them a while and see what they have to offer, you have his number if you feel the need to have a chat with him.

[pj2017]

That's a standard template response but with the added benefit that the instruction has been passed down from higher up the foodchain.

 

Give them a while and see what they have to offer, you have his number if you feel the need to have a chat with him.

 

I also received a letter from NatWest collections centre - now that they have added interest and charges taking me into unathorised OD apparently - asking me to phone them within 2 weeks. I phoned to explain I am waiting fo the DSAR reply, and also that I received an email from the RBS group executive office saying they are looking into it, and so I am waiting for their response too. They reiterated that they don't want to freeze my interest, and also that they believe that a dormant account can legitimately be subjected to constant charges and interest. i would have thought that if the account is no longer being used, you could close it and owe the debt at that level and pay that off - but I made clear that until I receive the DSAR reply, which may or may not arrive in 40 days, I can't give fully defend myself. Basically it was a holding phone call to tell them I am not ignoring the instruction in their letter to phone me, but I need the DSAR back and the further response from Stephen Hester's office to comment properly... He just recorded the fact that I had phoned and would be in further contact.

[Mike_hawk]

Usual really, give him a few days to act. If they still won't play we'll have to think of something else.

 

Oh and, if you get any calls from collections in the meantime suggest they call Gary or Aileen to ask for an update.

[pj2017]

1. Yesterday, I was emailed by Alison Acton at RBS saying she had been assigned to my case.

2. NatWest replied by letter today about my SAR request - saying they could not find a mortgage that related to me and so are unable to proceed with the SAR request. But my SAR letter clearly states a current account number - I am seeking overdraft facility letters and terms and conditions - and I did not say it related to a mortgage, as I have never had a mortgage with NatWest.

3. NatWest also sent me through the unarranged overdraft letter saying I will get charged £6 a day. I am only in unauthorised territory due to their charges and interest though.

 

I am not sure if NatWest want me to play letter tennis over the SAR request but it costs money to keep sending recorded delivery letters. So I emailed Alison Acton:

 

Thank you for your email, and I appreciate greatly the fact that a real live person and not a computer system has been assigned to answer my email! There are two things I want to raise with you:

 

1. I sent a Subject Access Request to NatWest (see the attached document for the text of it). It was signed for by recorded delivery on September 17th, when the bank's 40 days to action the request started. I also emailed Joyce Tudor at RBS on September 26th, asking for confirmation that the SAR request would be processed despite the fact the £10 postal order enclosed had not been cashed (I haven't checked today if you have cashed it or not). Joyce Tudor did not reply. I sent the SAR request to the EH12 1HQ address, because NatWest at http://www.natwest.com/popup/global/legals.ashx specifically state that is the correct address to use for SAR requests for accounts activated for online banking.

 

But today I received a reply from NatWest, Your Ref XXXX, saying they can't process the SAR request as they can't find evidence of a MORTGAGE held with NatWest.

 

But my SAR request does not refer to a mortgage - it clearly (see the text once again) refers to the current account number XXX, and asks in particular for a copy of the original terms and conditions of the account, copies of all overdraft facility letters that may have been issued, and a complete copy of the ‘Diary Event History’ for the account.

 

I hope pretending that this SAR request relates to a mortgage is not a way of trying to evade the statutory duty to respond to the SAR request. I still expect the SAR materials to be made available to me by the end of October AND IF THEY ARE NOT, I THINK THIS IS PRETTY GOOD EVIDENCE OF UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES as how can I defend myself against overdraft charges and interest if I can't get the materials I am trying to get? I reserve the right to sue NatWest in the small claims court at some future date if the SAR materials are not sent through by the end of October.

 

2. I also emailed Gary Stewart, hoping he could persuade the Birmingham Collections Centre to freeze interest and charges on the now dormant account. This is because my freelance work has collapsed in quantity, although I have promised a good project in December or January and would be willing to agree that the OD limit reverts to a much lower level within 6 months, giving me a chance to pay a lot off.

 

Today I received another letter from NatWest ref XXX telling me I have an unauthorised overdraft and I will be charged £6 a day for ever. But the account is dormant - how can you continue add charges onto a dormant account? A direct debit might bounce if the account had no money - but funnily enough, your "charges" never bounce - they are always applied. Why is that? The letter they sent me said "you have recently made one or more withdrawal or payment that could not be covered" - but I have not used the account recently. I made no withdrawal or payment - it is you who have put the account into unauthorised OD territory by applying interests and charges to a dormant account.

 

I need the SAR information, because I do not believe I ever agreed to unilateral variation of interest rates by the bank after a large debt had been built up or to the bank's notion that a dormant account can be constantly stung with fresh charges. I need to see the original terms and conditions and all overdraft facility letters to mount a legal defence against the way the account has been unfairly managed. I don't recall asking for an odd overdraft limit of £XXXX either, and would like to see how that arose and whether the bank just allowed it to be run up. I have legal questions over the account, and I cannot afford to pay right now, and I would appreciate it if you removed the charges that fatuously took the account into unauthorised territory at the end of September and froze interest and charges on the account for six months.

 

Can we not work together to resolve this issue? I am trying to maintain a dialogue. Please reply today.

 

Was my email too aggressive? It was annoying for them to claim my SAR request related to a mortgage and so I would not be getting it actioned, so that explains my tone! Should I write back by post re: the SAR letter or wait and see what Alison says?

 

I think NatWest could identify me from this message on the CAG forum as it gives more or less the full text of the email. Is that a problem? Nothing I am saying on this forum is different to what I am writing to them...

[Mike_hawk]

Did I mention Natwest are a shambles............ that's not too strong, that'll be like water off a ducks back to most of the staff.

 

Now I know they're not all idiots [some seem to be] but they do like to string things out with meaningless waffle so expect more trash to come your way. I had 3 years of the rubbish before I got sick of it and sued them.... but I'm fairly thick skinned

 

Give Alison a bell and ask her how long she expects to take to investigate your original request to Gary and what she intends to do in the short term to prevent you from being treated unfairly by the bank.

[pj2017]

Did I mention Natwest are a shambles............ that's not too strong, that'll be like water off a ducks back to most of the staff.

 

Now I know they're not all idiots [some seem to be] but they do like to string things out with meaningless waffle so expect more trash to come your way. I had 3 years of the rubbish before I got sick of it and sued them.... but I'm fairly thick skinned

 

Give Alison a bell and ask her how long she expects to take to investigate your original request to Gary and what she intends to do in the short term to prevent you from being treated unfairly by the bank.

 

Thanks for your great advice - I appreciate it. Can I ask you what NatWest would think if they knew these exchanges of emails and letters were being discussed on CAG? There isn't any reason why I should delete or thin out the text of some of my previous messages, is there? Thanks.

[Mike_hawk]

Bugger all to do with them if you want to openly share your problems, there's plenty more that have suffered at the hands of their disgraceful behaviour......

 

Trust me they've seen a hell of a lot worse, yours is fairly mild compared to some.

 

Keep at them, and keep remembering to bring fairness into the context of your communications

[pj2017]

I sent Alison, who is handling my case, this email a couple of days ago, but no reply unfortunately:

 

as you know it is a while since I emailed Gary Stewart. Since I

emailed him, my account has gone into "unauthorised overdraft" and all

sorts of interest and charges will be added to a dormant account. I

wonder if you can tell me both when you expect your inquiries into my

case to be over and also what you can do in the short term to prevent

the bank from treating me unfairly. Charges and interest on a dormant

are unfair, and so is the bank's refusal to provide me with the

subject access request details I have asked them for. As I said in my

last email, despite the fact that the letter I sent had my current

account number on and clearly asked for overdraft facility letters and

everything else the bank has on me - the bank is pretending my SAR

request relates to a mortgage. I need a response to the SAR request to

defend myself legally with respect to the overdraft. For a start, I

don't recall ever agreeing to the provision that once a debt had been

run up, a dormant account could never be closed and would face

permanent interest and charges. So I need the original terms and

conditions and all overdraft facility letters in order to be able to

defend my case.

 

Can you answer these things (without sending out a pro forma email

saying you are continuing to look into my case):

 

* What can you do to make sure the bank answers my SAR request properly?

* Have you intervened to ensure the SAR details you are legally

required to send me are on their way to me?

* Do you regard it as fair management of an account for the bank to

simply refuse to obey the law and provide the SAR information

requested within the stated 40 days?

* What have you done to stop the bank adding on interest and charges

while you are reviewing my case?

* Do you regard it as fair for the bank to add on interest and charges

while you are reviewing a case?

* Do you regard it as fair for the bank to add any charges at all on

an account that is clearly dormant and no longer used for anything?

 

Please reply within 24 hours and tell me you have intervened to get my

SAR details to me and to have interest and charges frozen on the

dormant account. This request is only in line with the obligation to

treat customers fairly. How is your investigation into my case

progressing, and how much longer will it be?

 

I am going to phone the part of NatWest that sent me the SAR refusal now and chase up the SAR...