Suspended on Full Pay (nearly a month)

[honeybee13]

Hello Deb.

 

I've merged your new thread with the existing one. This is usually easier for all concerned and will take your thread back to the top of the list.

 

My best, HB

[Debvfm]

Hi Honeybee. Thanks the only reason I started a new one was the fact I don't seem to get a reply on the other one and this question is urgent. Is my union rep correct in saying if it goes to ET then the customers can be called as witnesses?? Thank you

[Debvfm]

Hi sorry my previous post got lost. Yes I am an account manager/rep and have been with my employer for 17 months. The disciplinary was a farce really a decision was made before I went in from what myself and the union rep can draw from the experience. When I went through each visit to the customer and provided proof or answers these were glossed over. (for instance one customer was on holiday when they called and no one called back to confirm when he returned, another customer said they could not be 100% sure I was not there as lots of people man reception and they still held that against me). When I had an argument for each accusation they then said that I had put incorrect names against the entries. I explained this was due to my inability to type due to my hand injury and this was again glossed over. I am so angry I really want to clear my name, I am not dishonest nor a liar.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

You may not have had replies because people didn't know the answers. I don't think it makes any difference whether it's an old thread or a new one, tbh. Once you post a new question, the thread goes back to the top of the forum.

 

I'll try to keep an eye on this and if you don't have a reply in the next 24 hours, I'll try to get you some help.

 

HB

[Debvfm]

Many thanks Honeybee.

[Emmzzi]

I would insist they call back to confirm or let the rep handle doing it as you personally do not want to be accused of badgering customers.

 

You *did* put wrong names against entries. I am not sure how this relates to your hand injury as surely you would have put *no* name in? I am not following the logic there.

[Debvfm]

Hi Emmzzi It is hard to follow the logic however I didnt have to type the old names as they were already on the system in a drop down menu. However, if I had entered the new ones it would have meant entering a whole new record which is a reasonably long process. I have appealed due to the harshness of the decision, after all other people are blatantly lying saying they have been into customer when they havent.

[Emmzzi]

Did you explain the hand problems at the time? Could someone else have helped you with the typing? If I were your employer that is what I would be asking - a database with incorrect data is worth less than no database.

 

I also don;t think "everyone does it but I am the one who got caught" holds much water.

 

What does your rep say about contacting other customers?

[Debvfm]

I haven't asked the Union Rep I thought I would ask you but he is of the belief that when it goes to ET then customers will be called as witnesses anyway.

They knew of my hand problems at the time and had asked an OT for a report.

The database DID NOT have incorrect information, I just put a contact down that I usually spoke to. There was nothing misleading in my notes i.e I didn't say I had been somewhere I had not (and have proof although this has not been requested). I will take this along to the appeal hearing however. A RTW interview was not requested and did not take place. I just took in a fit to work note which stated I was not fit for the job due to the typing and carrying of my laptop.

 

My argument is it is not that I got 'caught' as I did not tell blatant lies like others who were merely warned from doing it again by telephone.

 

I think this is unfair and does not treat members of staff 'equally and fairly'.

[Emmzzi]

If you were not fit for the job I am not sure why you started back at it. I think you have some accountability here.

 

Also, as long as it is not discriminatory over a protected characteristic, there is no obligation to treat staff equally.

 

I'm not sure what your arguement actually is. Are you and your rep clear?

[Debvfm]

I was not told of correct procedure with sickness/illness. I had previously been self employed. Being a single parent I was mindful of the loss of pay SSP being paid and other factors. what would be a protected characteristic. My ex company pride themselves on treating staff equally.

 

My argument is they have a duty of care to staff, they did no back to work interview and different rules apply to different members of the team who all do the same job. I think the dismissal was a harsh punishment considering people had been found 'guilty' of far worse and just received a gentle word. That surely would set a precedent for future treatment of similar offences??

[assisted blonde]

I have a very simple question why didnt you use the other hand on the laptop? would have been a mite slower but its not the same as having to write with the other hand?

[Emmzzi]

You have a duty of care too. You had a doctors note about alptop use. You ignored it. Whose fault is that?

 

I don't know how important the company take falsifying records - by accident or design, whether you believe it to be important or not by putting in the wrong names, that is what has happened. Maybe other people do it all the time - but what matters is that you are the one being investigated.

 

Let your rep make sure the customers are contacted. But you DO need to prepare yourself for the appeal possibly not going the way you want, because I do not think this is a clear cut case. The measure an ET would take was "was the action withion the range of reasonable responses an employer might have."

 

It sounds like it might be reasonable to me.

 

And by sounding like you do not believe you have done anything wrong, you make it idfficult for your employer t accept that you have learned from your mistakes and there will be no recurrance.

[Debvfm]

emmzzi sorry if I did not make myself clear in my post. My doctors certificate said I was not fit for work with no return date specified. The OT report mentioned typing carrying of laptop getting trains in peak times etc.,

 

I know that my appeal will not be successful however, I have been advised by my union rep this is the course I have to take to ultimately get my time in court with my employer. I do not want my old job back however, I would like my name cleared I have admitted the omission of new information with the mitigating circumstances being my hand injury. It was not done to deceive nor mislead.

 

Why is it required for a BTW interview to be done? And what is the outcome if the company did not do one nor request it??

 

Thanks

[Debvfm]

Hi Assisted Blond. I did not use the other hand on the laptop as the programme requires both (copy and paste etc). There was also nobody else to help me with this. All actions require both hands. I did my best with the limited function I had, my employer knew of this but no made no move to help me.

 

One colleague left her laptop at home after a meeting and was allowed to go home at 3 o clock. I could not bring my laptop in and borrowed another colleagues for ten minutes and was made to sit there until 5.30. This ironically is the same person who was given a friendly word of advice whilst I was suspended. Thanks

[Emmzzi]

Have a look at the intro to this ACAS training course.

 

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3079

 

I think it's pretty clear that RTW is best practice but in no way mandatory. it is not illegal not to do them.

 

Another example here

 

http://employmentlawclinic.com/attendance-and-performance/return-to-work-interviews/

 

If you were signed off work and presented yourself as though you were not, and were fit to come in, I'd say that is deceit on your part. As a defence? No chance.

 

And yet you do not seem to acknowledge that there was any fault on your part?

 

Whereas a quick "I stuffed up, I am sorry and it will never happen again" earlier in the process may have served you well.

 

And for the last time - STOP obsessing about how other staff are treated. It is not going to help you!

[Debvfm]

A brief update having just spoken to my rep. He is going in to the appeal with the view that the investigation has not been carried out thoroughly. They have held against many instances which I can prove are incorrect and have not bothered to follow this up. They have just taken the investigators word for it, this will become clear to them once I produce my evidence.

[Emmzzi]

I think that is the right area to focus on. Thumbs up to the rep.

[Debvfm]

I am glad that something I have posted meets with your approval at last Emmzzi All joking aside I did not deceive anyone, I was fit to work if the OH report had been adhered to and their recommendations taken on board. Having owned my own business for many years I did not realise the onus is on me to prove I am fit for work, I always thought the employer had a duty of care too.

[Debvfm]

Also my fit for work note did not specify dates AND I had taken a weeks annual leave (which my ex employer is giving me back I should add) after the opteration on my hand. I had the stitches removed and at NO point did the hospital say I was not fit for work. If they had I would have had no choice but to stay at home. I assume ignorance is not an excuse either but if I hold my hands up to anything it is only that.

[Emmzzi]

Deb, I'm not saying the business has no duty of care, I'm saying you are an adult and you chose to take actions against you fit note, it sounds like because you were worried about money. It's not a defence to rely on!

[Debvfm]

Explain that to my mortgage company lol!!! What I am saying is that the fit note was ambiguous, it was dated the day I was told I had to have an urgent operation on my hand and I was given no date to go back. I didn't take action against the fit note the fit note did not clearly state when I should be fit. Surely if my employer had read it (after all its provided for their benefit) they should have asked me if the information was incomplete to get more?? I had no idea from the consultant when I should be 'fit' to return to work.

[assisted blonde]

Hi Debvfm thanks for answering the question (Hope you wernt offended) I just thought that it may be the type of question you would get asked by your employer.

Another question now (sorry) but if you couldnt use your hand how did you get round to customers? if you were driving (1 handed) i would have thought that your insurance would have been invalid? also if you were driving was it a company car if so the medication may also have been an issue.

Edited September 11, 2012 by assisted blonde

[Emmzzi]

Deb, I don;t think we are going to agree on this point at all. I'm going to bow out.

[Debvfm]

Hi Emmzzi, I don't expect you to agree after all I want to see this objectively, but some of your replies have been a little harsh. As I say I can only plead ignorance and if you don't think that qualifies as a defence then I can say no more.

 

Hi assisted blonde. No I wasn't offended at all takes a lot more to offend me. I was not allowed to drive so as I had a 'walking territory' I came into via train and used shankseys pony or tube/bus. I had a company car allowance paid with my salary. I have been on permanent medication since the accident (co-codamol and tramadol) but due to them causing drowsiness would only take one at a time to manage the pain during the day and two at night to help me sleep.

 

Thanks for your help.