Bought a horse but when it arrived it was NOT as described.

[Missis]

My husband bought me a horse off a woman in the UK, UNSEEN. Should have had it vetted and seen it for myself. I knew it had a slight lameness but it was bought for its looks and its looks only. I paint and its my way of coping with a loss. When it arrived in this Country (EU) State. It was in a dreadful state, underfed and loads wrong with it BUT mainly it no longer looked like it looked on its photo's and no mention whatsoever about its true faults apart from the lameness. Not only was I conned out of alot of money, she 'thought so much of this horse' that she still wanted to retain half ownership as she had paid a considerable amount of money for it, hence I signed a 'contract' for this. as I knew I would hardly be riding it and would not be breeding from it. I signed the Contract. Our Solicitor at the time said it was not worth the paper it was written on but I signed it as I wanted to reassure her the horse would be well looked after.

When it arrived here I was shocked at its condition, I have been ill for sometime now (good days and Bad day's) I had to deal with the loss of another horse a few days before ontop of my other loss

and let my heart rule my head and accepted that I had been ripped off. This woman has kept in touch and I have been biting my tongue for a good while now. When I asked her to sign the paperwork for its passport in my name she stated that she 'only sold a share in the horse' and wanted her name on the documentation. I flipped as I had found out she had not only bought the horse for a 'token' and sold it me for a fortune she still wanted to have some hold on a horse thats worth nothing.

I have sent her an email laying out my intentions (I want my money back) I have also sent her it in writing recorded delivered. She has the money hence she is worth chasing. She has also carried on breeding another species of animal which I am sure she would not want her prospective purchases finding out that she rips people off.

 

1. She was Breeding horses at the time of the purchase and a registered breeder at that.

 

2. No mention of the horses true faults which clearly affected it for what I bought it for.

 

3. The sale was conducted through a Solicitor in the UK, thus monies can be clearly traced.

 

4. I requested my money back ontop of the cost's I have had to lay out, BUT have said that I would deduct the cost of the horses real value from the amount I am owed. I do not want her getting her hands on this horse as she has clearly demonstrated she cannot look after it. I have offered her the chance that if she disputes what I am saying she is welcomed to have the horse vetted over here and valued over here.

 

Question. What would my next step be as I am expecting the Recorded Delivered Letter to be returned?

[MARTIN3030]

Hello can you please confirm in you are in the UK or where ?

[Missis]

Hi, I am a UK Citizen but living in ROI. Horse sale was conducted in the UK before we left.

[assisted blonde]

I can only say that the fact she paid very little for the horse and you bought it off her for considerably more has no relevance, everyone is entitled to sell goods/property for whatever they can get .

How long have youy had the horse for? if its faults were obvious when you got it did you complain then? it could be that if you knew of the faults when it arrived but you said nothing then you have accepted the horse.

Why does this person want to retain a share in it?

You seem to have agreed that you only purchased a share in the animal and signed a contract to this effect, I would have thought that if you only owned 50% of it then the contract should have gone on top clarify whowas responsible for vets bills etc 50/50?

If you ask for your money back then you cannot say I will then deduct the true cost of the horse because I dont want her having it back, if you accept or are offered a refund then the goods should be returned to the owner?

I am not sure what you are thinking of when you say she breeds another type of animal and wouldnt want people knowing that she rips them off, because I am not absolutly sure where the rip off is except that the horse had more faults than originally advertised, what sort of things are wrong with it except for the lameness?

I know it seems like a lot of questions but its just to try and simplify matters.

[Missis]

I bought the horse in good faith, it was bought only for its looks, the slight lameness did not matter I was made aware of this. The purpose was to paint the horse not to ride or breed from it. Which sounds strange in itself most people want horses without lameness. For the small amount of riding I do I have another horse for that.When it arrived it had clear signs that made it unsuitable for what it was bought for. She already knew this and kept quiet about it. I did not kick off with her at the time as a few months before I had to cope with a loss of a young life, a few days before the horse arrived I lost another horse through a freak accident and on top of that I was very ill, good days and bad days.

All I am looking for on this site are directions to the next step to take under Civil Law to get my money back. I have already wrote the money off in my head but I want Justice and I want to warn the World about this woman.

I know she is now breeding another species of animal and would like a good reputation in her business dealings.

Sounds harsh but she has alot more to lose than me.

[assisted blonde]

I really am not sure what recourse you could have as you have accepted the goods by keeping them. If you are the owner or part owner why did you need this woman to sign the passport, do you have a bill of sale stating that you are the owner, if you are a part owner I am not sure how you can get your money back without selling the hgorse back to this woman or selling it on, do you have the right to sell it on, I think you need tocheck exactly what ownership rights you have.

 

Justice is a strange thing if you have already written the money off but you believe that this person should not be breeding or selling other animals as they are not kept correctly then you need to inform the RSPCA and depending on what type of animal she is breading the local council.

 

Council register certain types of animal establishments and the establishment has to conform to certain regulations, if animals are in a poor condition then a joint visit between licensing enforcement and the RSPCA will take place and prosecutions may follow

.

I can understand that you were not in the best of situations at the time but I really dont think you can reject the horse and ask for a refund at this stage.

 

Do you actually own the horse or are you just caring for it and the legal rights to it still bvelong to this other person?

 

If you truly want to keep the animal then you need to sort out with your solicitor if necessary if you actually own it, or if you are only renting it, leasing it etc as that will make a difference as to your next steps.

 

You need to be careful about telling the world about this woman as if anything you say harms her reputation and it is shown to be an inaccurate statement by you she could bring a defamation case which would cost thousands.

 

Sorry I cant be of more help but I think you need to seperate the 2 issues before going any further, as i see it 1 issue is that you dont think this person should keep/sell animals because of their conditions and the 2nd is that you do not feel the goods were as described and potentially you wish to reject them.

[Missis]

If it was not an animal it would be different, but if you had seen it when it arrived I think most people would have felt the same as I did. It was at one time a magnificent animal. It would be like sending a foster child home knowing it will not be looked after. Besides I have given her the option of paying me back minus what the horse is actually worth.

On the ownership issue the contract that was signed actually went in her favour that I paid ALL the Vet bills, fair enough if it was only a bit of pain killer now and again, but the horse has issues that require more than pain killers, hence it was NOT as she had described it. I think she is hoping that because I am in another Country I will not do anything.

The horse passport should be in my name as I am the full time owner, but the breed society will not do this as this woman refuses to sign the relevant paperwork.

I will carry on regardless myself on the legal side.

I have also looked into the Libel Laws and that I can only publish the truth, if she disputes it the onus is on her to prove I am wrong. Been thinking about setting a whole website up on this woman so when people google her name they can have a look what she has done to me with pictures of the horse when it arrived and how he looks now.

As for the other species I am already looking into the legal side of her operations.

 

I will keep everyone informed of my progress!

[assisted blonde]

Good luck I hope you get somewhere with this, just a comment though the amount the horse or anything else is worth is only what someone is prepared to pay for it. She advertised at a certain price you b ought it and by keeping it despite its condition accepted it, could be tricky that one.

 

The onus is actually on you as the defendant to prove that what you have printed is right not for her to prove that you are wrong.

 

Libel cases are all held in the high court in London, therefore legal fees for both parties are extreemly high even before the trial starts and it can take a long time before it comes to court, the vast majority of cases are setttled out of court as the loser has to pay the costs for both sides which can be prohibitive.

 

I do think you need to go down the RSPCA/licensing route as if you are correct and animals are suffering it would bring a quicker resolution to the problem, you could also contact the breed society of whichever animals she is breeding/selling and ask for their input.

[Missis]

Sorry got that one the wrong way around! Yes I can prove what I am saying is true. I have proof what she has done and a Veterinary report (after the event) how the horse became in such a condition ie time scales for it to be neglected resulting in its present condition. The horse now, is very well fed infact a bit too much, a lovely animal in itself just a pity she had got her hands on it before I did. I am fortunate to be able afford the legal costs but rather get satisfaction with doing this one myself.

 

I am looking into Planning Regulations and Licensing for what she is doing at the moment as well as the RSPCA. I am also thinking about sending a copy of the letter I have sent her, to all her neighbours if the letter is returned as well as a leaflet drop in her area and as Mobile Advertising.

 

IF I got my money back and that is a big IF I am decent enough to leave it at that.

[assisted blonde]

Just a word of advice do not send a copy of the letter to her neighbours do a leaflet drop or mobile advertising you will be wandering into the realms of criminal offences, under the Criminal JusticeAct, Protection from Harrasment Act etc etc.

 

I am an ex licensing officer so if you could say what type of animal she is breeding i may be able to offer some advice as to the legislation.

 

It is a fact that although you may have what you consider evidence against this person courts may not always agree with you its all down to interpretation of the defences in a trial.

 

If you get your money back it will be in exchange for returning the horse, do you want to do that?

[Missis]

I have spoken with my husband and he would like me to return the horse and get my money back. This would not be cheap on her part as I no longer live in the UK. I doubt she has the facilities for the horse as it is not a normal run of the mill animal as she moved shortly before I got it.Her old place had these facilities.

Im just a sucker for neglect cases. I will put my case before a Judge and see what they direct and go with it. Just feared it will be neglected again.

I am speaking with the breed society at the moment concerning the horse and they are in support of me but still cannot do anything without her signiture.

 

The other matter = Pedigree Cat's and Boarding of Cat's.

 

I am looking into the planning reg's, ie change of use etc.

Tax Evasion.

Environmental Health issues etc.

[assisted blonde]

All catteries and cat breeding establishments must be licensed with the licensing depoartment of the local authority in the area where the establishment is, sometimes it will come under the remit of environmental health. if you go onto the website of the local authority it will tell you. All registered sites are inspected annually when the licence is renewed.

If it is unregistered then you report this to the council licensing enforcement and they will investigate.

If there has been any planning issues or if there are planning issues then the initial investigation by licensing will establish this and they will proceed accordingly.

Not sure where you are going with Tax evasion as you would need to access personal records, you can get some financial information from Creditsafe if you are a registered user and if she is a limited company.

Environmental health issues would work in conjunction with licensing issues if there is a problem.

[Missis]

Thanks for your advice I will be onto it on Monday. I will keep everyone updated on my progress and if anyone wants to offer me advice it will be greatly accepted.

[assisted blonde]

Hopoe you get it sorted

[Bang!]

If she still owns a percentage of the horse, is she paying you for its livery?

[Missis]

@ Bang, I quite agree but she had this wrote in the 'Contract' hence one of the reasons the Solicitor said at the time 'it was not worth the paper it was written on' as it went all in her favour. At the time I did not bother as I thought I was getting something what was described, instead I got something that is high maintanance and most certainly NOT as described.

Unsure about charging her 'rent' of a stable and grazing as I own them, but I am going to ask for 'ALL' my costs including the extra feeding, bedding,haylage and medicines as well as Veterinary treatment, new rug's to protect it from one of the things it suffers with, again information she kept back.

 

Again I would be most greatful for any information on how I can nail this one!

[assisted blonde]

I think you may have a problem charging her for anything that wasnt in the contract, as your solicitor said it was all in her favour. A contract is an agreement between at least 2 people over the age of 18, if you both signed it you would be bound by its T & C's.

The arrangement could be similar as to when people adopt animals, often the rescue society or charity etc still hold legal title to the animal but the new keeper is responsible for its upkeep, bills etc.

As a matter of interest how long have you had this horse? when did you first tell her it was not as described? what does your contract/bill of sale say regarding stabling, vets bills etc.

Finally in what way did the animal differ from that stated in the bill of sale, for example was it not of the same breed/age/colour. I appreciate that you have said it was in poor condition but in what way, how long did it take to recover condition etc?

Did your solicitor advise you not to sign the contract?

[Missis]

I have had the horse for nearly 10 months, which I know I should have kicked off when it came, but it has taken me this long to get my head back together in a sort of way and my energy and health up and running.She was a registered breeder of this breed at the time of sale and bought and sold horses as well.

The horse has two very major faults with it. I would like to tell you what it is but being on the WWW would pin the horse down. One of its faults will limit its life span, there is no cure for it in humans either and the other fault is a 'conformation' fault which makes it really unsuitable for what I want it for ie its looks. I am having to make do with photo's from other sources of it when it was a magnificent animal.

It has taken me this length of time to get it right in the other way ie feeding it and fattening it up and treating it (which is on going) for a not so minor fault in some horses but again affects this horses looks, again something which I was not told about.

The Solicitor said at the time it wasnt worth the paper it was written on but it was up to me to sign it or not. I told her (THE WOMAN) when it arrived about the life threatening fault and she just said 'oh it was like that when he came to me' which is true as I have been intouch with one of its former owners BUT again I was not told about it.

I had just accepted I had been ripped off and that was the end of it, but since this business about ownership has sprung up I have snapped and NOW seeing what I can do.

 

I have known people who have had horses on loan from horse charities and the Charities would never let an animal go if they knew it had on going health issues.

 

I am on the phone later regarding the licencing and will update this blog.

[assisted blonde]

Please keep us up to date and I will keep looking to see if there is anything else you can do (without getting yourself into bother!)

[Missis]

I have got a letter off to the Planning in her area as to see if she had planning for 'change of use' and still trying to get hold of an EHO to speak to about registration. Also thinking about Business Rates? On the place she had before where she bred these horses and on the place she has now? I know if it was food animals they are excempt but pretty sure Equine Establishments are to pay rates?

[assisted blonde]

If you find out whether she is registered as a breeder/cattery with the LA then everything else will fall into place much more easily such as rates. I have some contacts in LA's if possible could you tell us which area of the country she is in as I may be able to help/give you a person to contact. If you prefer not to put it on open forum email the site team and ask if you can send it to me by PM, as I am not quite sure of the rules on here.

[Missis]

Thanks for that assisted blonde, I will do that, I have been busy today and have spoken to her LA and as predicted, she is not licensed and they have asked me to put it in writing which I have to make a complaint. I spoke with a Solicitor last night and he say's I can get her on the 'Sale of Goods Act' as she was a Registered Breeder as well as bought and sold horses ie 'dealing'

[hightail]

If you find out whether she is registered as a breeder/cattery with the LA

There's no such thing as a registered breeder of cats. She may be registered as a business if she has a substantial setup but it would have to be more than a couple of runs. Dog breeders have to be licensed with councils once they go over a certain number of breeding animals or litters per year but there's no equivalent for cats. There have been occasions when over zealous council employees have thought they could use the dog rules on cat breeders but they can't. I think the difference arises because dogs were licensed animals with legal status and cats never have been.

[assisted blonde]

Catteries are registered with the LA as it comes under animal boarding kennels. I agree that she dosnt have to be registered with them to breed cats though that would be down to the breed society if she was selling pedigrees. i was refering to the cattery part probably didnt make that clear.

[hightail]

The term 'cattery' is used for both a breeding household and a boarding establishment these days and does give rise to confusion There is also a false idea that 'breed societies' have some sort of power to control breeding. Anyone can breed pedigree cats. They don't have to belong to any breed club. There are at least three registration bodies which all have slightly differing ideas of what breeds/colours etc. they accept for registration so a breeder will register kittens with whichever one suits their breed. The most known in the UK is the GCCF but many perfectly good breeders register kittens with TICA or FIFe. Makes dogs and the KC look simple in comparison.