PCN - Being in a bus lane - Leeds City Council

[ponder]

Hello All,

 

I've just got a PCN though to say I was in a bus lane on Burley Road in Leeds during the hours of opperation, just before midnight! I will admit to not being aware that bus lanes could be 24 hour, but as there wasn't any traffic, let alone buses I presumed wrongly that I could use it. Also, I don't live in Leeds and had just driven up for a gig so unfortunately, I wasn't aware of the recent enforcement drive.

 

Anyway.. Is there any way I can get out of it? I suppose incorrect signage would be the only way? Or is it that 24 hour bus lanes don't require signage? I certainly didn't notice any signage. Unfortunately it's not worth me driving up to Leeds again to photograph the scene for the sake of £30, but I just want to show The Man (or mildly irritate him). I've never had any sort of traffic fine and I'm one of those idiots who stick to speed limits religiously. This just seems a bit ridiculous. Makes me want to buy a van, register it in someone elses name and not bother to tax, insure or MOT it.

 

Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received, and thanks for reading.

[sailor sam]

If there are no times stated on the signs, it is in operation 24 hours. It appears that at the end of the bus lane, there is a priority for it at the traffic lights. I'm guessing that this is where you used it. There is one exactly like it in Wolverhampton and a few drivers do the same to avoid the red light in the normal lane.

 

Not sure an appeal will be successful but no harm in trying.

[ponder]

Thank you - I see now. I've never been on that stretch of road before so didn't intentionally use it to miss a light; as I was turning left at the junction ahead, I thought it would be good to be in the left lane. Turns out it wasn't as I think there was a light in the normal lane and a 'give way' from the bus lane to get back onto the normal lane directly after the light which I thought was odd. I think you're right that it's unlikely to be successful, but there's no harm in trying. It'll make me feel better and I'd be quite happy to waste some of their time. I'll make sure they send me a document with the hours of operation written on it.

[HYMN AND MI]

If we could see the PCN as I believe it may be invalid due to expression of date under 14 day discount:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2757/regulation/8/made

(f)

that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by one half;

If your states this:

14 days beginning with the date of this PCN

it is invalid.We need confirmation.

[Jon1965]

No harm in writing asking them to reconsider and explain the circumstances. However unless they cocked up, you may well have to take it on the chin

[HYMN AND MI]

Not if their PCN is invalid. You might well try mitigating circumstance but they almost always fail. This is a bus lane contravention and you will need a technical appeal. Does the wording I have cited appear on your PCN? If it does, you simply appeal on that ground, they have to consider and then we take it from there.

 

Further, if you wish to really make them work, you require the following items:

 

1. All photgraphic evidence. 2. Video footage, 3. Copy Traffic Regulation Order by pdf.

[ponder]

Hi Hymn and Mi,

The wording on mine is: "If the penalty charge is paid before the end of the 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by half."

 

So the only difference in wording is mine doesn't say "period of 14 days" just "14 days" and instead of "one half", it just says "half". Don't think that will be enough will it? Would it help if I took a photo of the PCN?

[HYMN AND MI]

They are learning and have changed it. OK, please post up the PCN less any details which would identify you.

[ponder]

Thanks Hymn - really appreciate this. Here's the PCN - I hoped I've removed all personal details - thought I'd get rid of the time too just in case. It was just before midnight if it matters!

 

[HYMN AND MI]

We need all of it. ?: were the date of notice and posting the same? envelope?

[HYMN AND MI]

If you refer to the legislation link above, there is a problem with the wording @ 8(5)(k): the use of the word "will" as opposed to "may". You may think this insignificant but I have got my son off on the same issue and that similar wording has been ruled upon at PATAS in London. Cases to follow.

 

The rest of the PCN, please. All of it.

[HYMN AND MI]

Cases: http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/

 

Click on Search and type the number in and then click on underlined number at top left of page.

 

2110072817 and 2100649871. BTW, I was heavily involved in the latter and it was my case which was mentioned in the decision i.e. it was pointed out to the authority that the wording was non-compliant in May 2010. Nevertheless, they refused to cancel others on the same basis or refund. They then changed the wording in June 2010 and pursued this case in the full knowledge that they had cancelled mine previously. (The said lkane was eventually declared "unlawful" when PATAS sent an adjudicator to inspect for himself!) Even the one in the latter case was wrong re the signage!

 

Rest of the pcn???????????

[ponder]

This is the other side of the first page. The third page just has two photos of 'evidence' and the reference number for the case, date, my reg. number and the "by CEO" number.

 

[ponder]

Sorry that's upside down - I cropped it, rotated it and saved it on photobucket and it's displaying the old version for some reason. Thanks for the link - I will have a good read of the cases tomorrow and decide what to do!

[HYMN AND MI]

No worries, I am having a long day. Look, I have pointed out one error on which you should make a representation. If you study what must be contained on the PCN according to the link above http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2757/regulation/8/made and compare with your PCN, you may discover some more faults; however, I do believe what I have found so far is enough on which to make an appeal. If you need help formulating this, I am happy to do so.

 

Regards

 

Hymn and Mi

[HYMN AND MI]

(5) A penalty charge notice must state—

(a)the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;

(b)the detection date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;

©the reasons why the authority believe that a penalty charge is payable;

(d)the amount of the penalty charge;

(e)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the 28 day period;

(f)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by one half;

(g)that representations may be made, on any of the statutory grounds of appeal, to the authority against the imposition of the penalty charge but that representations made outside the 28 day period may be disregarded;

(h)what are the statutory grounds of appeal;

(i)the postal address to which representations are to be sent;

(j)any electronic mail address or FAX number to which representations may be sent as an alternative to the postal address;

(k)that if at the end of the 28 day period—

(i)no representations have been made; and

(ii)the penalty charge has not been paid,

the authority may increase the penalty charge by a half and take steps to enforce payment of the charge as so increased;(l)the manner in which the penalty charge may be paid;

(m)that if the representations are rejected an appeal may be made on any of the statutory grounds of appeal may be made to an adjudicator in respect of a penalty charge; and

(n)that the recipient may, by notice in writing to the authority, request them—

(i)to make available at an office of theirs specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him and by his representative (if any), the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(ii)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

(6) Where the recipient of the notice makes a request under paragraph (5)(m), the authority shall comply with the request within a reasonable time.

[ponder]

Thanks Hymn and Mi,

 

I'm drafting an email. I spoke to the council who advised me to write an email to them requesting a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order. I also checked that making an appeal would put the 2 weeks I have to pay the reduced rate fine on hold - I was worried about making an appeal and then having to pay at the higher rate if it failed. I will make sure I get them to clarify this in writing.

 

I will include the discrepancy you have found and compare both documents to see if there are any others.

 

The only other thing I mentioned to them over the phone was that I moved into the bus lane (not realising it was 24 hour) to avoid a taxi which was tailgating me - I only just remembered this and I have noticed it actually appears in the evidence photographs. The lady I spoke to said that they could check this out on the CCTV. Do you think this would be worth adding? The lady I spoke to didn't dismiss it. Would there be any further implications of this? I just don't want to open up a whole new can of worms and make too much work for myself!

 

Thanks again.

[HYMN AND MI]

Always communicate in writing.

[HYMN AND MI]

Case won today on the 14 day wording; but, of course, they have now changed it.