Fairly urgent - tribunal advice needed

[kingofrod]

Quality advice. Many thanks indeed.

[kingofrod]

I guys, well my case has now been relisted as two days. Kinda expected it, but am quite disappointed. Seems silly to drag this out longer than I think is needed.

 

Anyway, I need to submit the final part of my documentation soon : written statements of the evidence.

 

I don't understand what this means. Anyone?! Thanks

[madari]

Hi

 

Do you mean a `witness statement?`

[kingofrod]

" The claimant and the respondent shall prepare full written statements of the evidence they and their witnesses intend to give at the hearing. No additional witness evidence may be allowed at the hearing without permission of the Tribunal. "

 

Cheers, Madari

[madari]

Hi

 

Yes ,Witness statement it is.[a story in chronological order -that you wish to rely on at the ET]

 

One,which will be exchanged simultanously at an agreed date by both parties probably seven days before the hearing.

 

And six copies of the same for you to take to the tribunal.

 

The opening para [1]should give your name and address and who you worked for and what you did there [position]

 

You also need to number all the paragraphs.

 

Finishing off by stating : the above is a true statement to the best of my knowledge & belief and signed.

 

Do not sign the [any] statement until the day of the ET incase you need to make final[minor] amendments.

 

Good luck

[kingofrod]

Thanks Mad! Good advice.

 

I have submitted some "witness statements" already from my Aunt, Uncle, some friends, some customers of the business (regarding the disrepute thing - I told tham I didn't need them, following on from advice a few pages ago - but they said they wanted to go on record) but I don't intend on calling any of these people as witnesses at the actual Tribunal.

 

So do I essentially just have to do my own statement giving, in chronological order, a run down of events, so so speak?

 

Is that it ?

 

Cheers

[madari]

Hi

 

Yes you do your own statement pointing to the relevant documents in the bundle ie:

 

`on the 3 December I received a letter stating`blah, blah blah.......[at pge 2]

 

And so on...., you can even if you want to ,refer to a paragraph, line or a sentence..this is what is regarded as documentry evidence.

 

I hope you get my drift.

[kingofrod]

I do get your drift, thank you!!

 

One of the problems I have is that a lot of the evidence that would support me was/is in my company email account and, of course, I don't have access to this. That is, the arrangement I had with management over the discharge of leave. If I had access to my emails I'd be able to prove that I'd sent requests and never had responses but despite this the time off was allocated. So I had no reason to believe differently on this occasion. If the time off were NOT being granted, why did I not get a response saying NO or even pointing me in the direction of someone who COULD authorise the time off?

 

May I ask, those of you who are obviously legally, errrrrrrm, in the know - should I be pursuing this? Based on what you've read of my case, should I carry on?

 

I do NOT want to waste the time of the Tribunal, I don't want to waste my employer's time or money. If there's no chance of me getting anything out of this, I'll drop it tomorrow. But if there's a chance, as I personally believe there is (or would like to believe there is), then I'll keep going.

 

So you legally minded folks, if I were your client, what would you advise?

[madari]

Hi

You should be chasing up all the evidence that you need to prove your case.[including emails]

 

Litigation is not for the faint hearted, only you can decide as to how far you want to pursue your Ex.

 

As for wasting time, that should not be your concern.

 

Whether your case has merit or not is neither here nor there, in litigation there is no room for niceties.

 

The more pressure you put on your Ex the most likely they are to wash their hands of the whole issue and possibly settle out of court,but like i said there is only you that can decide.

 

In litigation it pays to be nuisance then being `Mr Nice guy`so forget the niceties.

 

If you were a client of a lawyer, they would be milking you dry regardless of whether you had a case or not.

[kingofrod]

Thanks for this, again. I've requested a load of emails from the that prove my arrangement with the senior managers and will wait and see what, if anything, comes back from them.

 

I'd also need a record of when I was off work to prove that all the requests I'd ever sent through had be actioned. I doubt they'll be able to give me that, though.

 

The problem is that they might provide me emails of me asking for time off and no reply relating to that request, BUT I won't be able to prove that I didn't actually work.

[becky2585]

If you were a client of a lawyer, they would be milking you dry regardless of whether you had a case or not.

 

Thats quite a dim view you hold of the legal profession. It's also categorically untrue.

 

The Solicitors Code of Conduct requires lawyers to act in their clients best interests at all times. I think you may be surprised how stringent the monitoring is now!

 

If a case holds no reasonable prospects, we have to ditch the case if the client has no prospect of recovering any money and they're just throwing good money after bad. Lawyers and solicitors are still human and not the money grabbing saps you make them out to be. It's not like we keep any of it ourselves!

 

We can easily refuse to act for someone further if it's not in their best interests for us to do so. It doesn't happen that frequently, though, because clients are advised from the outset if their case is rubbish.

[madari]

Thats quite a dim view you hold of the legal profession. It's also categorically untrue.

 

The Solicitors Code of Conduct requires lawyers to act in their clients best interests at all times. I think you may be surprised how stringent the monitoring is now!

 

If a case holds no reasonable prospects, we have to ditch the case if the client has no prospect of recovering any money and they're just throwing good money after bad. Lawyers and solicitors are still human and not the money grabbing saps you make them out to be. It's not like we keep any of it ourselves!

 

We can easily refuse to act for someone further if it's not in their best interests for us to do so. It doesn't happen that frequently, though, because clients are advised from the outset if their case is rubbish.

 

All I have to say about solicitors and their clients is that in the olden days the clients interests took presedence but now and for quite sometime it is all about the bottom line.[i should Know]

 

The solicitors code of conduct may require a lot of things but it means naff all when it comes to running a profit making business.

 

One only needs to trawl thru the forum to see how the legal system is milking the vulnerable.

 

Finally I have said my piece regarding the legal profession and will say no more on the subject, as my sole purpose is to pass on free advise to whoever i can assist on this forum.

[becky2585]

I agree about the advice, but I'd be careful about making such inflammatory comments. Most of us in the legal profession would actually find that type of comment rather offensive.

 

I am curious as to what's happened to you to make you form that view, however.

[kingofrod]

Hi again, guys.

 

RE: exchange of witness statements, the respondent's solicitor has said she wants to call me before either of us sends the statement through (agreed that we'd send them by email) so we can exchange the statements "simultaneously". Is this normal? Why would the exchange of statements seem to be so, ummmm, sensitive?

 

Also, the company has sent through some more documents to add to my bundle but most of them are already in there. I don't understand the relevance of the documents, seeing as they're already part of the bundle. Isn't it a waste of time?

[becky2585]

Yes, exchanging statements in that way is normal. Think about it - if someone didn't exchange their statement at that minute, had chance to read the oppositions evidence and then decided to amend their statement to effectively undermine the opposition's case, it would somewhat make the process of exchanging all written evidence that YOU intend to rely on being a bit futile. I always call up and ask them to email theirs first

 

Are you sure the documents are the same? Did they write the page numbers on and update the index so you can see where they're meant to go and why?

[kingofrod]

Hiya Becky, hope you're well .

 

Yeah, the files are largely the same as what I've already got. A record of my attendance, for example, minutes of my final disciplinary hearing, emails between myself and the company.

 

We had an in house travel organising company at my office because there were so many staff there (company-wide) and one of the things the company is questioning is why I inquired about the price of a flight overseas when I was home caring for my uncle. I explained to them that I was getting a price for a friend, but they keep bringing it up. The ticket was never purchased, paid for, confirmed etc. But they've included reference to that ticket, too.

 

It is pretty much all a duplication of information I've already got.

 

I have asked them to provide me with a fair amount of new information, too. So hopefully that'll come soon.

 

For my statement, when should I start it, chronologically, I mean? Cheers muchly. x

[kingofrod]

Sorry to bump this one, but just looking for a little advice on my statement thing... ? cheers

[kingofrod]

Hi guys,

 

My statement is running into 10 pages or more and I'm not close to finished. Is this normal?

 

Additionally, I've requested some information from the respondent that I need in order to complete my witness statement but I have not yet been sent these documents. The respondent wants to exchange statements tomorrow at 5:00pm and I do not think that I'll have sufficient time to amend my statement if this information comes through between now and then.

 

Can this be held against either one of us?

 

Further, I requested "all emails between myself and a particular manager" and the respondent supplied some, but not all, emails. One of the most important ones is missing (the one where I asked for the extra time off due to my uncle's accident).

 

Becky, I noticed this in another thread :

Your solicitor is right about the procedure and it should have been done by separate people in an ideal world. It's actually more important in a gross misconduct situation to follow a fair procedure, as a lack of fair process can arguably in itself result in an unfair dismissal.

Can I ask, is the appeals hearing manager saying, at the very start of my hearing : "I'd have sacked you, too", fair? Can I argue that this meant I was not given access to a fair appeals procedure?

 

Further, letter one day from employer says I could be accompanied to hearings, next day saying I couldn't, next day saying I could, next day saying I couldn't. Can I argue that this information was misleading and caused undue stress at an already difficult time?

 

Thanks xx

Edited March 29, 2012 by kingofrod

[becky2585]

Hi, sorry I missed your previous post!

 

You can apply to the ET for an extension, but if you didn't apply previously for an order for specific disclosure, it may not be granted. In all honesty though, they usually are. Id therefore write to the tribunal requesting both.

 

Yes, the length is normal too. The statement serves as ALL your evidence, so it will be lengthy!

[kingofrod]

Hi, sorry I missed your previous post!

 

You can apply to the ET for an extension, but if you didn't apply previously for an order for specific disclosure, it may not be granted. In all honesty though, they usually are. Id therefore write to the tribunal requesting both.

 

Yes, the length is normal too. The statement serves as ALL your evidence, so it will be lengthy!

Thanks Becky. The deadline for the statements has already been put back from 26th to 28th and then 28th to 30th and it was all done informally, I guess, between myself and the respondent.

 

I know it sounds childish/immature, but I'd love to try and get them on a technicality as well as what I see as being the genuine merits of my case. So can I say to The Tribunal that they witheld information from me to make my job of preparing a statement more difficult?

 

While I know I cannot mention their letters about a settlement (WPSATC), can I mention in my statement MY offer of settlement in the hope of showing that I've been fair, reasonable and acted with integrity?

 

I've told they I'd ideally love my job back BUT if that's not happening I don't even want money from them - just my employee discount for their store which was a major perk (it made them profit and saved me money, so win-win).

 

Can I also ask, just for clarity (I know it's kinda been done to death) what the situation is with costs?

 

I saw this online : But the ‘save as to costs’ bit means that if you refuse the offer and then either lose, or get awarded less than they have offered, they may show the tribunal the letter in support of an application for costs at the end of the case.

 

And it got me worried again. I could go through all of this, believing that I have a case, and at the end be lumbered with their costs which they claim will be +£10k...

Edited March 29, 2012 by kingofrod

[becky2585]

Blimey, you don't make things easy do you!

 

Firstly, the ET doesn't like orders being varied without their consent. It's always best to go through the ET. Most lawyers will very orders between them by consent, but if the ET find out, they may take issue with it.

 

You can say to the tribunal that them withholding evidence has made it impossible for you to complete your witness statement, but such a statement would hold more water after you've made an application for an order for specific disclosure. You can enclose copy correspondence between you and the other side to show you've tried to do this informally before applying to the ET.

 

You can try to submit without prejudice offers on an open basis, however really the ET shouldn't allow this. I would imagine the other side would oppose this in the strongest terms and would apply to have it deemed inadmissible anyway. Plus, the other thing to note is that you can't pick and choose, if you waive without prejudice privilege on one issue, you may well find yourself having to disclose all without prejudice correspondence.

 

You are right about the save as to costs bit, but that only is disclosed where a costs application has been made with a real prospect of succeeding, and additionally where a party has unreasonably turned down an offer of settlement. It's not as stringent as a Part 36 offer but the principle is the same, in that if you were offered 20k to settle, refused, went on to the hearing and six months later were awarded 10k, then in that situation it would be compulsory to disclose without prejudice correspondence as part of a costs application, as an unreasonable early settlement offer was refused, the claimant went on to recover less, and circa £10,000 of legal costs for the Respondent could have been avoided. Clearly it's not always that black and white, but that's the best way to explain it in real terms.

[becky2585]

In terms of your previous edit, that's crucial information which should be submitted to show procedural unfairness, so yes, you have very valid points there.

[kingofrod]

Blimey, you don't make things easy do you!

I like to make sure you're paying attention!!!! 10/10 so far!

 

Firstly, the ET doesn't like orders being varied without their consent. It's always best to go through the ET. Most lawyers will very orders between them by consent, but if the ET find out, they may take issue with it.

Interesting. I could of course plead ignorance of the fact that this is frowned upon, on account of, until now, I was ignorant to that fact.

 

You can say to the tribunal that them withholding evidence has made it impossible for you to complete your witness statement, but such a statement would hold more water after you've made an application for an order for specific disclosure. You can enclose copy correspondence between you and the other side to show you've tried to do this informally before applying to the ET.

The hearing is in May and I'm concious of time ticking on. I think I probably have all of the information I need buried somewhere in the 250+ page bundle, but I requested "all emails...." and didn't nearly get them all, as others exist within the bundle already. So really, are they witholding some documents because I've asked for "all emails" and they haven't sent me "all emails" (even though I do have them already. Clutching at straws?) I'll drop this line of thought, I think.

 

You can try to submit without prejudice offers on an open basis, however really the ET shouldn't allow this. I would imagine the other side would oppose this in the strongest terms and would apply to have it deemed inadmissible anyway. Plus, the other thing to note is that you can't pick and choose, if you waive without prejudice privilege on one issue, you may well find yourself having to disclose all without prejudice correspondence.

I don't really understand this bit. Sorry hun. I have no "costs" so to speak as I'm representing myself. My only costs will be my travel to/from tribunal and accommodation down there, which I understand I can claim back anyway? So I don't want to go for costs - I've acted with integrity and honesty throughout so far, so why change now and apply for costs that I won't incur?

 

But I do want the hearing to be aware that I've been reasonable with the respondent and tried to meet a mutually beneficial agreement. My emails offering this were never marked WPSATC because I felt that I wanted to use them, possibly. But they make mention of the respondent's offer, of course. So can they not be admitted? If I wanted them admitted to the bundle, do I just ask the respondent to do so, and perhaps amend the contents and send them through?

 

You are right about the save as to costs bit, but that only is disclosed where a costs application has been made with a real prospect of succeeding, and additionally where a party has unreasonably turned down an offer of settlement. It's not as stringent as a Part 36 offer but the principle is the same, in that if you were offered 20k to settle, refused, went on to the hearing and six months later were awarded 10k, then in that situation it would be compulsory to disclose without prejudice correspondence as part of a costs application, as an unreasonable early settlement offer was refused, the claimant went on to recover less, and circa £10,000 of legal costs for the Respondent could have been avoided. Clearly it's not always that black and white, but that's the best way to explain it in real terms.

As long as there's always an opportunity to withdraw the case before having costs awarded against me, that's fine. I'm happy, if a judge etc. declares my case to have little prospect of success, to withdraw. I'm not in this to cause them problems or to be difficult (but it's a bonus!), I'm in it because I feel I've been mistreated.

 

I've been offered a "dates only reference" from the respondent, Becky. So if I went to hearing and the Tribunal said I lose and I don't get anything, could they then take me for costs?

 

I thought the costs thing involved a PHR to determine whether costs would be awarded or not and, if so, either party has an opportunity to withdraw?

 

Thanks SO much again! I wish I had the money to retain your counsel.

 

In terms of your previous edit, that's crucial information which should be submitted to show procedural unfairness, so yes, you have very valid points there.

Thanks! I kinda gave up in the appeals hearing and didn't put my point across properly because I knew it would be pointless. So it really did affect me. I couldn't believe she said it.

[kingofrod]

Hi all!

 

Got the following from the respondent's solicitor in relation to some documents I have requested but that have not been provided. The deadling for the exchange of statements has already been pushed back twice while we wait for these documents :

 

"To avoid any furtherdelays, I suggest that we exchange witness statements at 5pm today, as agreed.

If either party wishes tomake supplemental amendments to their statement(s) in light of such documents,I suggest that we agree to do so once they have been received. Please note thatthis will not be an opportunity for either party to amend their statement(s) toreflect the other party's evidence. Such amendments must strictly relate to theadditional documents. I trust that this is clear."

Does this seem reasonable?

Further, they appear to have ignored my email of yesterday in which I re-addressed my counter-settlement offer and explained the very obvious merits of it. I asked that they put the offer to the respondent again. That email wasn't acknowledged.

Just ploughing on with my statement at the moment, ready for the call this evening.

[lbruk]

No, I wouldn't accept that. They are delaying for a reason and you have a right to see the information to complete your witness statement. Have you agreed the tribunal bundle yet?