Fairly urgent - tribunal advice needed

[CaptainMannering]

Oh good, mines looking about 16 I think and very simlilar to you with questions.

I'm just on with my witness statement now actually, although it's quite difficult with no bundle!!!!

Have a quick look at my thread I've raised a Q if you can answer it

[kingofrod]

Replied. Hope of help. Hope accurate! Check your PMs.

[CaptainMannering]

Replied to your pm

[lbruk]

King, your posts are starting to look a little frantic! I would take a moment nd calm down.

 

Schedule of loss can be submitted right up to teh hearing date.

 

Its odd that your Schedule of Issues has had to wait so long, Mine was done a good 3 mths before the hearing and 4 weeks before the CMD.

 

Statement, read it over and over, change spelling, wording, read it out loud so you know how long its going to take you to read it, take out statements where you are making judgement that the tribunal is to make like "i believe this is constructive dismissal" it really doesn't matter what you believe, the tribunal will make up their own minds.

 

Get a close friend to read your statement, and pose questions to you, like a roleplay, get them to be the nastiest, most brutal questions they c an think of, then when you are at the tribunal it cant be worse than that! I have a friend reading thru mine atm, and i know he is gonna be so horrible, but i am going to make notes and see how react to them. We're doing it over a few beers so its kinda friendly! but i would highly recommend this, as i did it with him for the grievance and completely wiped the floor with my respondent!

[kingofrod]

Ibruk, thanks, excellent advice as always.

 

You're right - I'm getting a bit stressed. I'm super busy at work at the moment and so I'm fighting to find time to do al the stuff I still need to do.

 

I've got about 22 pages of questions for the first witness and expect, on that basis, about 14 pages of questions for the second.

 

I still need to sort out flights, hotel etc, and that's also a bit stressful. I don't want to book too early incase the respondent comes back with an offer and it's wasted money, but I don't want to leave it so late that I miss the boat (or plane).

 

I will take a deep breath, count to ten, and go through things more calmly.

 

I have four days off in a couple of days to really focus.

 

Forgive me, but what's CMD? I am sure I know but I cannot think of it!

 

I'll be glad when it's all over and hopefully be able to hang around here and share my experiences with others, as you've done Ibruk, when I've some first hand experience.

[CaptainMannering]

Case management discussion

[lbruk]

22pages! Wow.

 

I have to ask are they all relevant? That seems an awful lot. Make sure that you ask leading questions, get them to agree with your chain of events. If they can admit to the facts, then the tribunal will make up its own mind. Again try not to put words in the tribunals mouth, I would say that your response to their answers is as important as the actual question.

 

My concern about that many questions is that you may sound like a robot, just spouting out questions, wanting to make sure you get through them rather than getting them to admit to a very important one point. If you could prove those one or two points would that prove your case?

[kingofrod]

22pages! Wow.

 

I have to ask are they all relevant? That seems an awful lot. Make sure that you ask leading questions, get them to agree with your chain of events. If they can admit to the facts, then the tribunal will make up its own mind. Again try not to put words in the tribunals mouth, I would say that your response to their answers is as important as the actual question.

 

My concern about that many questions is that you may sound like a robot, just spouting out questions, wanting to make sure you get through them rather than getting them to admit to a very important one point. If you could prove those one or two points would that prove your case?

I know it sounds a lot but it's 22 pages of repetitiveness, in many places.

 

From his statement I have picked up 67 things I want to question him about. In each of those things I could have one question or two, sometimes three. Now, in those 67 things, the same questions are asked a number of times, so in reality there might only be about 20 questions or points and within them some of the sub-points are the same, if you get what I mean.

 

I.E. He might say something to which I'll ask "do you acknowledge that the dog was brown?"

 

Later, he might say something else, which will raise the question "do you acknoweldge that the dog was brown?"

 

So while I've written the question on my list twice, I won't ask it twice it will have already been answered. UNLESS significant other information has come from previous answers that could have made him re-think his previous answer to something.

 

It sounds worse than it is.

 

As for leading questions, Ibruk, most of mine begin "do you acknowledge" or "don't you acknowledge that....", so fairly leading in that regard.

 

I've re-done my schedule of loss. All in, including four weeks notice pay and the difference in earnings between dismissal and hearing, I'm looking for £5,500.00 plus other bits and pieces. I'll get that to them today.

[lbruk]

I have 4 pages of questions for my line manager, who is the main person i am complaining about - and i'm claiming £100k lol

 

I think all questions that you pose need to be aimed at proving your case, if this is one question or 100, i don't think there is much difference if that's what it takes. My personality is to ask as little as possible but to get the most out of it.

[kingofrod]

Bliddy heck Ibruk. £100k, eh. Good luck. Is your case likely to hit the national headlines as a result of the size and nature of the claim?

 

Oh, incidentally, I spoke to the Tribunal people today as I emailed them before speaking to you about the list of issues. They've come back and said that, as I'm not professionally represented, I can ignore the last case management order.

 

In essence, I'm all set for the Tribunal. They need nothing more from me.

 

We'll wait and see if I get the docs I'm waiting for from the respondent today. If not, I'll be p*ssed off.

[lbruk]

well. mine is for constructive dismissal, disability and sex discrimination, we'll see where is it goes!

 

And interesting, I prepared my Schedule of Issues myself with the help of the respondents solicitor and my local CAB rep. Maybe i needn't have done that, I may email them today!

 

Well if you are all set, kick back with a pina colada and enjoy the British weather!

[CaptainMannering]

Bliddy heck Ibruk. £100k, eh. Good luck. Is your case likely to hit the national headlines as a result of the size and nature of the claim?

 

Oh, incidentally, I spoke to the Tribunal people today as I emailed them before speaking to you about the list of issues. They've come back and said that, as I'm not professionally represented, I can ignore the last case management order.

 

In essence, I'm all set for the Tribunal. They need nothing more from me.

 

We'll wait and see if I get the docs I'm waiting for from the respondent today. If not, I'll be p*ssed off.

 

That's good news for me too as I'll not have to compile this.

 

Let us know if you get the docs, incidentally are you chasing this up or leaving it for them?

[kingofrod]

Well if you are all set, kick back with a pina colada and enjoy the British weather!

I'm currently six beers deep and relaxing until I get going on the second witness statement later today.

 

And, of course, until I get the other documentation I'm waiting for; at which point I need to update my own statement and re-paginate my references to the bundle.

 

That's good news for me too as I'll not have to compile this.

 

Let us know if you get the docs, incidentally are you chasing this up or leaving it for them?

Well, I sent a Specific Disclosure Order request middle of last week. I've had no responde from the Tribunal, but did get a letter from the respondent appealing against my request. Later that same day I got a far less formal email saying that they'd get all these documents to me today. So I'm leaving them to it.

 

I'm more than happy to let them keep shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to timing, as they've done throughout the process. I cannot help but think this will work in my favour....

[CaptainMannering]

I'm currently six beers deep and relaxing until I get going on the second witness statement later today.

 

And, of course, until I get the other documentation I'm waiting for; at which point I need to update my own statement and re-paginate my references to the bundle.

 

Well, I sent a Specific Disclosure Order request middle of last week. I've had no responde from the Tribunal, but did get a letter from the respondent appealing against my request. Later that same day I got a far less formal email saying that they'd get all these documents to me today. So I'm leaving them to it.

 

I'm more than happy to let them keep shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to timing, as they've done throughout the process. I cannot help but think this will work in my favour....

 

This is one of the things that annoys me about the ET. I too wrote for an SDO some 3 weeks ago and still haven't had it through yet.

It takes them up to 10 days to deal with correspondence by which time it may be too late.

For example I refused their extension request and said I would agree to a 7 day extension. This will have passed by the time the ET deal with the requests

[kingofrod]

Yeah, it's pretty bad, but I guess they have a hell of a lot to contend with. I have to be honest, I've been EXTREMELY impressed with their 'service'. I mean, I've had fairly promptish and fair responses to all correspondence between the three of us (even when things hadn't gone in my favour, I found the responses justified and fair) and they've agreed to flights and hotels for me. The people I speak to down there all seem nice.

 

Am I lucky? Have I found one of the best ET centres in the UK?!

[kingofrod]

Hi guys,

 

Right, got loads of stuff through from the respondent. There's only ONE email between myself and the manager in question. The respondent claims to have carried out a "reasonable search" and found only ONE email between myself and this manager. Now, I know for an absolute fact that many more emails exist, or atleast existed. I shall, therefore, not withdraw my specific disclosure request, but if they say that this is the only email that exists, how do I fight them on it?

 

Further, one of the other documents they re-sent shows a fairly significan inaccuracy. As mentioned previously, it shows me as having carried out a sales visit to a certain company on a day that I had asked this manager to take off work. It's a company I hve NEVER visited before, but the schedule shows me as having undertaken the sales call .

 

How do I :

 

a) get the emails I know to exist?

b) tell the Tribunal that even the information they have provided is inaccurate

 

I don't want to have to call this manager as a witness. I mean, I will if need be, but I'd rather there be a way around it. Can I call explicit notice in my updated statement to the fact that I'm not happy with the information that's been provided?

 

Can I ask the respondent to check finalised company-wide sales visit logs, which should show exactly who made the sales visit, for security reasons? (while my personal log held by the company might show me as having done it in error, the company log should be 100% accurate)

 

 

EDIT TO ADD : OK something I think is fairly positive... I've read over in fine detail the emails between myself and the second manager - the one I have all the emails to/from - and in one of her emails to me she refers to an email I sent to the first manager, from whom I'm not getting the documentation I know exists, that has not been provided by the respondent. So even if I can't get the emails, I will atleast be able to show the Tribunal that previous emails did exist and that the respondent is holding out. Yay.

 

In my witness statement, can I say something like "despite numerous requests for and lengthy delays in being provided copies of all emails between myself and MANAGER1, only one email has been provided. However, in an email between myself and MANAGER2, MANAGER2 refers to an email I had sent to MANAGER1 a few days previously, proving that further email correspondence between myself and MANAGER1 did/does exist but is not being made available.

Edited April 30, 2012 by kingofrod

[lbruk]

A reasonable search is searching for your name in the title line, this is acceptable under the data protection act.

 

If you know it to exist, then state the title, date, time etc so they can track it down, if you know it's there and can spell it out to them then the tribunal may order is disclosure.

 

Did you do a SAR before starting your battle? Just saying as it took me 6 months to get all the documentation from my respondent, and that included sending in a complaint to the ICO

[kingofrod]

Hi mate,

 

The thing is, there are dozens of emails between the two of us and so it's impossible for me to remember when they were sent. I'd have expected them to perform an email search by my account name, as that appears to have been what they've done with the other manager.

 

They came back with ALL of the emails I'd ever sent to her, and all the emails she'd ever sent to me. My name was nowhere in the title/subject line of any of those emails.

 

They obviously didn't conduct the same level of search for this second manager's emails as they did the first.

 

Like I mentioned previously, I do have evidence that we had an arrangement in place and that my requests would be actioned without my being notified, but that's only one such example of about half a dozen or more instances of this happening.

 

It's the second manager who I dealt with more regularly and they have produced only ONE email from me to him. The last email I sent to him before I was dismissed.

 

I KNOW there are more. They ADMIT to there being more. How can they get away with not producing them?

 

I didn't do an SAR. To be honest, in the early days, I was naive. I thought the company was going "through the motions", so to speak, and that I would be fine as they recognised I was a good, positive employee with an excellent attendance record. So I didn't pull emails from my account that I should perhaps have done.

 

I'm running out of time, but I'd like them to get back into MY email account and pull the emails from there, if they claim they don't exist on the manager's.

[kingofrod]

Ibruk mate, can you point me in the direction of the DPA section that mentioned a search for a name in a title being considered "reasonable"?

 

I'm not doubting you, so please forgive me if it sounds like I am, but I've been able to find nothing that suggests even close to that. I have found that there is no real definition of "reasonable and proportionate" and, in general, that's up to the Tribunal to decide.

 

In this case, I'd argue that they haven't conducted a "reasonable and proportionate" search as they quite plainly haven't applied the same procedures to this search as they did the last.

 

BTW, the respondent has also asked me for payslips from my current job to support my updated Summary of Loss, but I'm not going to provide them at this point. Is that OK? It's not a requirement that I provide this information at this point, or at all, unless requested by the Tribunal, I think?

 

Further, the one email they did find did not have my name in the subject line, so have to argue that if that was their interpretation of "reasonable", they obviously searched to a greater extent than was "reasonable" in order to find that one email.

[mariefab]

Sorry if this is a numpty's question but, why can't you simply retrieve the emails by searching for the email address of the 2nd manager during the relevant period in your old emails?

I just searched for my manager's email address and found every email he's sent me since 2006.

[kingofrod]

Oh Marie, hun, I wish it was that easy! I don't have access to my email account anymore as it's an internal company one. I had that access removed when they sacked me. No Outlook access, unfortunately, so no copies on my own computer. Damn it.

 

What I think they may have done is search HIS computer and/or backup systems and he may have deleted everything from there. I highly doubt that it would have gone completely, though, and I really do believe they are witholding a lot of information.

 

I doubt they'll have searched mine - or it may well all have been disposed of when I went - as I had EVERY email there between the two of us, but didn't think to pull them off before I had my access revoked.

 

This is also why I don't consider their search to have been "reasonable", because if they had simply searched for my address in his email folders (current or archived), they would have found all my stuff.

[kingofrod]

In order to disprove some of the documentation they've sent me - namely their sales visit timetable showing I visited one client on a certain date - I spoke to some of the other clients I had to determine when I visited them around that time period. Long story short, the information I have proves that I could NOT have visited the client they claim I visited on the date they claim I visited them.

 

I know I can submit this to the bundle, but considering we've exchanged witness statements, how can I refer to this to highlight it's relevance and importance?

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Also found myself being referred to as MISS KINGOFROD in one of the witness statements. Maybe they think I took time off for sex change surgery?

[kingofrod]

NEW WITNESS STATEMENT :

 

OK, things are getting a bit more annoying now.

 

Concerning an arrangement relating to the documentation I was expecting to be sent by the respondent, we had an arrangement as follows :

 

 

“If either partywishes to make supplemental amendments to their statement(s) in light of suchdocuments, I suggest that we agree to do so once they have been received.Please note that this will not be an opportunity for either party to amendtheir statement(s) to reflect the other party's evidence. Such amendments muststrictly relate to the additional documents. I trust that this is clear.”

 

I have now been sent an amended witness statement with amendments that do not relate IN THE SLIGHTEST to the documentation provided.

 

I was provided with ONE email that had already been included in the bundle. As such, I replied to the above saying that I had not amended my witness statement and nor did I expect them to amend theirs.

 

Do I just tell them to p*ss off, basically? How do I submit this information to the Tribunal, showing them that we agreed no changes but they went ahead regardless?

 

Also, I want to submit more information, as mentioned in last post, and they're saying no..... They also say I have to give them my pay slips since leaving the company to prove my SoL.

 

I've told them that there is no requirement at this stage to provide wage slips.

 

I've told them that I will fiercely oppose the use of the new witness statement, as all of my notes an questions relate to previous paragraphs and remarks made in the previous witness statement.

[lbruk]

Hey king,

 

It's not in the DPA, the ICO say that searching in the subject line for your name is a reasonable search for emails, as to search the body of the email may be disproportionate search and take too much time.

[kingofrod]

Hiya Ib, thanks for that.

 

I'll still argue with them, I think : they've obviously searched more than just the subject line to get my other emails, so there's no doubt others popped up in the process of the search they conducted to get what they did so they've selectively picked which emails to submit and which to leave aside.... Naughty.