unethical if not dodgy dealer?

[leopard lady]

My daughter saw a car advertised in autotrader, so phoned to ask if she could go and look at it. She was told someone was looking at it so they would ring her back. They rang her back and said they had some other people coming to look at it. As it was over 100 miles away they could not hold it unless she left a deposit. She asked if it was in good condition body wise and mechanically and was told it was in good condition and it wouldn't hang around. So she agreed to pay £100 deposit and asked me to take her to see the car. Unfortunately it was around 5:20pm when we arrived and it was dark. Needless to say I am no mechanic, neither is my daughter, but we had a good look round and it looked OK. they started it up and it sounded OK. She said she wanted it and was putting it on a credit card as she is expecting some money shortly. I was taken to the house to make the card payment and she was taken into the office, which was a shed, to get the papers.

 

In her defence there was about 3 sets of buyers in this small shed cum office, you could hardly move, the seller told her to sign in one place which would enable her to drive home taxed and insured, and at the bottom. STUPIDLY she did not read this. He gave her the V5 back and MOT certificate.

 

We set off home and stopped at a petrol station for her to refuel. She said the windscreen seemed a bit unclear and greasy. We drove to the motorway and she flashed her lights, I stopped and she said her heating was not working. She tried to phone the guy but all his phones were off. She decided she had no option but to continue home and ring him in the morning. We continued home and got to about 25 miles from home when the car broke down. She said something popped and then she couldn't change gear. We had to get someone to come and tow her home. We were out approximately 11 hours to do a 110 return trip!!!

 

Her step dad came to look at the car today and it appears that the clutch cable might be the problem. Also the central locking does not work but could be the battery, and the heater fault. He rang the dealer up and in a pleasant manner mentioned what had happened. The dealer was very aggressive and said 'sold as seen, mate'. SD said I'm not having a go, just asking about these things. The reply was 'its in black and white on the receipt, she signed it, if you've got aproblem go to trading standards, you havent got a leg to stand on."

 

She brought the reciept round in tears, where she had signed to say she was taxed and insured to drive home it actually said that the vehicle was sold with mechanical and electrical faults and the seller is not responsible for anything after the sale. It also said further down that any mileage stated is not guaranteed as correct, however I have checked on the vosa website and it appears to be genuine, unlike this unscrupulous dealer, as she probably was not actually taxed and insured to drive home.

 

The vehicles advert was immediately removed from autotrader, however we still have a print out of it and none of the above was mentioned in the advert. Whilst searching for the ad I came across a cached page from December, and to make things worse (if they could be for her) it was advertised then as a cat C, which was never mentioned at all. Now we had heard of cat C and cat D but on the receipt it just says under engine number "V car" which we now understand means it has been a write off.

 

We, or should I say she, has made a very expensive mistake. Although she is at fault for being young, naive and over-trusting, I believe he has taken full advantage of this and purposely mis-led her by being economical with the truth. I am still trying to research car dealing on the internet to see if there is anything we can do, if not to help her but to help stop this happening again to some other unexperienced young person. I am sure this is why I was ushered to the house to make the payment whilst she was taken in to sign the papers. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!!!

 

Anyway, if anyone with more experience of car dealers than us can give us any ideas I would be very grateful.

 

NB: Can I just add, after reading similar threads, the car was advertised as a working useable car, not as spares or repair or damaged, and the fact that the guy told her that she was taxed and insured to drive it home but to sort her own tax and insurance in the morning (I was there when he said this) infers it was a driveable useable vehicle. She was also given a V5 and MOT certificate, as previously stated. Would the above statements written on the receipt constitute unfair terms in contract??????

Edited February 10, 2012 by leopard lady

[sailor sam]

Ok, I can't spare any time on this now but i will certainly consider it over the weekend. In the meantime can you tell us when the car was purchased, how old it is, mileage and how much you paid for it. The first thing I would do is a charge back via the credit card as the card co will be partially responsible. Try and do that NOW. Don't worry about what it says on the receipt as a trader cannot reduce or attempt to reduce the statutory rights of a consumer. I would also be interersted as to how the insurance was arranged for her to drive it home. If she disn't provide the insurance herself, I would contact the police in the area of the seller and advise them on how the cars are being released after being sold. They should be interested.

 

I will be back on tomorrow sometime but no doubt someone else may give their input.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[leopard lady]

Thanks Sam. Any time you can spare whenever is greatly appreciated.

 

Car purchased yesterday, (Thursday) used credit card with pin number

 

 

hope the above worked!!!

 

Can't do chargeback immediately as on her step-dads card so he needs to be here to do it but will try and sort it tomorrow.

 

As regards the insurance, would it not be our word against his that he said she was insured and taxed to drive home? She has arranged for a mechanic to come and look at it tomorrow to see what the damage is as we obviously have no idea.

Edited February 11, 2012 by leopard lady

[Conniff]

Good morning Leopard lady.

 

Firstly, faults must be pointed out by the seller or be obvious to be able to claim 'sold with faults', the term 'sold as seen' has no standing with a car sold by a dealer.

Anything written on the receipt or said by him is just waffle. Number 1 it is unlawful to attempt to reduce a consumer their statutory rights and number 2 you couldn't do it even if the buyer signed a paper saying they forgo their statutory rights, it just is not allowed.

 

You do have the protection of the chargeback, when does step-dad return from wherever he is?

 

I would get a letter in the post this morning - (there is time it's just turned 10 oclock) - rejecting the car and send it by registered mail.

[leopard lady]

Thanks Conniff is there anything in particular I need to put in the letter?

[Conniff]

Name the dealer and yourself on the letter along with the make, model and reg number. You should state that you are rejecting it under the Sale of Goods act 1979 (as amended) section 14 which says that the car must be of satiisfactory quality.

You can list the faults the mechanic has pointed out to you and any that was observed on the drive home.

 

You can also mention 'If you fail to accept my right to reject this car I will be forced to progress with legal proceedings in the County Court in order to recover the money'.

 

You must take the upper hand here, you don not have to accept a repair this soon after purchase.

[sailor sam]

Ok, i've taken a look at their web site; and I think it is very miss-leading. For a start in their detailed description of each car, it suggests that the manufacturer's warranty is still active! Take a look Conniff! I note that there isn't any mention of whether the cars have MOT or tax which is interesting. Clearly the seller is a 'bottom of the ladder' car dealer. I would deffinately contact their local TS and report them. They probably are known to them. I think your purchase WILL be covered under the distance selling regs which cover you for 7 days anyway so even if the car had no faults at all, you can reject it because you effectively bought it before seeing it. You could check this with consumer direct.

 

Anyway, You MUST do a charge back ASAP. Contact the card co and explain the situation and I hope you have done what Conniff has advised by sending a formal rejection letter. Lets not pussy foot around on this one. Re the tax and insurance... the fact it was taxed or not should of been obvious to you as there would of been a dsic to check. By law it would of been YOUR responsibility to make siure there was insurance on the car before you drove it away. Personally, I would of wanted to see a cover note or some other document which i could of carried with me to prove it was insured unless it was covered on my own policy. If it was me, I would contact Stourbridge/West Mids police and inform them of this worrying practice. I don't believe they will take any action against you at this stage by doing so. You do not need to tell them that you drove the car home anyway. I cannot see how they can provide insurance cover for you unless they had some sort of rental policy because once you buy the car it is no longer theirs to insure and they would need to qualify you, as the driver to get cover.

 

Anyway, if you manage to get the charge back done, you can call them up and tell them where it is parked and would they like to come and collect it.

 

Please keep us posted.

Please Note

 

 

 

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

Edited February 15, 2012 by Conniff

[sailor sam]

Name the dealer and yourself on the letter along with the make, model and reg number. You should state that you are rejecting it under the Sale of Goods act 1979 (as amended) section 14 which says that the car must be of satiisfactory quality.

You can list the faults the mechanic has pointed out to you and any that was observed on the drive home.

 

You can also mention 'If you fail to accept my right to reject this car I will be forced to progress with legal proceedings in the County Court in order to recover the money'.

 

You must take the upper hand here, you don not have to accept a repair this soon after purchase.

 

As in my above post Conniff, I think that as the OP had secured the car by paying a deposit, distance selling regs could of been explored also. This gives a 7 day 'cooling off' period if the buyer was unable to see the car or deal with the seller face to face before purchase. However, by now the OP has hopefully sent the letter sighting your suggestion.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Surfer01]

Under the Road Traffic Act it may be illegal to sell a car that is not roadworthy. In addition as pointed out "Sold as seen " has no standing when a Purchase is made from a dealer. The Sale of Goods Act applies regardless.

[oddjobbob]

A dealer is compelled to decalre that a car is Cat c registered, the law changed several years ago.

 

Tell him you're brinignig it bac an get on to yuor card company for a refund as the cat c bit ws undeclared.

 

Be careful on the unroadworthy bit.. a faled clutch cable doesn't make it unroadworthy, its just something that can happen and is a simple fix.

 

Sold as seen means nothing as others have said.

[sailor sam]

Sounds like there was a lot more wrong with it other than just the clutch cable Bob! If she gets the charge back sorted, I would just tell them where it is and come and fetch it. These are exactly the rouge dealers that I have been on about that need to be 'educated'.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[oddjobbob]

Failed central locking and a non working heater don't make it unroadworhty either.

 

Cat C is the way to go, they are compelled by law to declare it and haven't.

 

Get a refund on the card then tell them to come and get it.

 

The onlyl sticky bit is that she's used someone lese's card, the card co might try and chicken out of it.

[sailor sam]

Well I don't think anyone has suggested it wasn't road worthy but its 'not of satisfactory quality' thats for sure. Also there is the distance selling regs to explore. The car may not have to faulty at all to qualify under those. I'm also very concerned about the insruance issues. That's very iffy indeed.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[oddjobbob]

I thought I saw where someone had suggested it was unroadworthy... but as you say not of satisfactory quality.

 

I'm not sure that DSRs apply to cars, are they not viewed as a 'one off' special item / case?

 

And telling her to sign for the insurance etc.. ffs.. .should NEVER be in the trade. What a complete Idiot.

[sailor sam]

Yes the DSRs do apply to cars... there arn't many things they don't apply to. Persihabels and things like that are excluded as well as anything specially ordered to a particular spec unless it is faulty.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[oddjobbob]

Sam... we are both right in a way, but in this particular case it seems that DSRs do NOT apply.

 

For some reason I can't c&p it, but if you look at point 3.2 here

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft689.pdf

 

AND in the q & a part of the government doc, DSRs only apply to cars where there is NO face to face contact between seller and buyer.

 

however had the op paid in full over the phone and had the car delivered than DSRs would apply.

 

I'm no expert but was sure I had seen somewhere about this.

 

Worth knowing for future ref!

[sailor sam]

Hmm Bob. The way inerperate it (which is why I suggested that the OP clarifies it with TS) is that the contract is made when the OP pays the deposit but up to the point of taking delivery, there has been no face to face contact and further more the OP hasn't actually seen/inspceted what he/she is buying. However, i'm happy to be proven wrong on that.

 

In any event, there are other factors in this case which the OP can (and should) reject the car IMHO.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[leopard lady]

I am a bit wary of contacting Trading standards as when DD spoke to them on Friday morning she was told that there was nothing they could do because she had signed the receipt saying there were major faults. I wasn't sure this was quite right, hence my original post.

[sailor sam]

I am a bit wary of contacting Trading standards as when DD spoke to them on Friday morning she was told that there was nothing they could do because she had signed the receipt saying there were major faults. I wasn't sure this was quite right, hence my original post.

 

Well yes that was a bit of a mistake but I see that as attemptiing to remove your statutory rights which is illegal i think. Surely they should be concerned about the way this dealer conducting business. Its very likely that they are releasing cars which arn't insured as well.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[leopard lady]

As I said, he had put vcar under engine number on the receipt but we were unaware of its implications. he never once mentioned it. I have since found and printed an advert from december where it was stated it was a cat c, and I have the print out of the advert my daughter saw with no mention of it.

 

Unfortunately she cannot get in touch with her step-dad until tomorrow but things will have to be sorted tomorrow one way or another. I have drafted a letter as suggested which can go next day delivery if a charge back is made.

 

My daughter wants to speak to the seller tomorrow morning, although I doubt she will get anywhere. I will keep the thread updated.

[sailor sam]

As I said, he had put vcar under engine number on the receipt but we were unaware of its implications. he never once mentioned it. I have since found and printed an advert from december where it was stated it was a cat c, and I have the print out of the advert my daughter saw with no mention of it.

 

Unfortunately she cannot get in touch with her step-dad until tomorrow but things will have to be sorted tomorrow one way or another. I have drafted a letter as suggested which can go next day delivery if a charge back is made.

 

My daughter wants to speak to the seller tomorrow morning, although I doubt she will get anywhere. I will keep the thread updated.

 

Is there any chance you can scan the receipt and post it here so we can check it out? Of course obscure any personal details. In the meantime, contact the card co asap.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[leopard lady]

Is there any chance you can scan the receipt and post it here so we can check it out? Of course obscure any personal details. In the meantime, contact the card co asap.

 

will do sam give me 5 minutes

 

 

[leopard lady]

Hope this is OK

C3receipt.pdf

[sailor sam]

will do sam give me 5 minutes

 

 

 

I'll have to look at it tomorrow. Bed time!

 

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[sailor sam]

The 'VCAR' insert is too vague IMHO. I don't think this affects your case. I would like Conniff to take a look to see what he thinks. In the meantime, carry on as advised.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.