Redundancy on Maternity Leave need advice ***WON***

[Sparklez30]

hi just to confirm that all vacancies were provided to me at my first consultation. The only positions in my field I was told were part time whereas I am employed full time but more importantly when I looked at the job specification it was for a position that was alot more junior role than I am currently in. At my second consultation I told them this and they agreed there were no suitable vacancies.

 

I have all the documents from my consultation meetings and all further correspondance.

 

My complaint regarding the redundancy procedure for me is two fold on the retention bonus and termination date.

 

There is the complaint that they are proposing to make me redundant before my role is redundant on 31st March however as yet they have not confirmed this so I propose to raise this on Tuesday when I expect to receive confirmation. I will point out that this is also discrimatory and all the other bits I wrote in post 97

 

Also that by not providing all the information during our previous 2 consultations (in regards to the bonus) the consultations have not been fair as I was not in receipt of all the information and as such I believe the consultation process for me has not been meaningful.

 

In reltation to the bonus I would like to complain now that they have finally sent additonal terms:-

That they with held information from me directly relating to the redundancy of my role (being the retention bonus) and only informed me of it via their letter offering me the bonus which they have twice now told me in writing was in error as I was on maternity leave.

 

That these tasks / terms were not sent until after I had raised my complaint and therefore were not in place when the retention bonus was offered either to myself or my maternity cover and were also not in place when they wrote to tell me I did not qualify for the retention bonus. (i did ask them to confirm when they were forwarded to my maternity cover however they have chosen to ignore that request - edit i now have email confirmation from my maternity cover of all dates surrounding the retention bonus and end date)

 

The tasks are discriminatory as it is my absence due to maternity leave that makes it not possible for me to fulfil their now received tasks

 

That by not disclosing the information relating to my role as soon as it was known (and indeed refusing to accept that I should have received this information) they have denied me the chance to qualify for the retention bonus and that this is also discriminatory

 

That I would be eligible to receive payment fir discretionary loyalty / retention bonuses even though I am on maternity leave as these would not be wages/salary

 

Does that all seem sensible? do you think any of my arguments are not correct?

 

 

The problem is though they told me in their last communication that they are not prepared to discuss this any further?

Edited February 9, 2012 by Sparklez30

[Sparklez30]

well I have typed out the events as they have happened and saved that - I have also listed above all the points that I think I have been wronged/discriminated against by and I have attempted to search through the various legislation to try to work out what my legal arguments are and all I have really managed to do is to discover that I feel very upset by the way I have been treated and legislation may as well be written in a foreign language.

 

Having trouble seeing the positives today

[mariefab]

I hope that you're feeling better today.

In my opinion you are to be congratulated on how well you've managed to get a grip on the issues in such a short time.

You also found the perfect case law and acquired potentially valuable written admissions from your employer.

[Sparklez30]

Thanks Mariefab I am feeling less despondent today. I was getting myself worked up because I couldn't understand all the legislation (and I'm sure when you are messed around so badly you go through a form of grief) but I think I need to simplify - I think I just need to work on my arguments and finding the relevant legislation for them and worry less about what I might need to know. And I still have a little while to look through as I havent even technically been made redundant yet.

 

looking at the tribunal timescales I am going to have quite a few months to get better to grips with it all lol. Just need to start getting my arguments together and backed up so that I can complete the paperwork before the 3 month time limit - I think I have pretty much all i need from my employers on the Bonus front as they have refused to communicate any further on the subject but I do like that they have several times confirmed that my treatment relates to my maternity lol!

 

In relation to the end date I know what I need to say and will go through that if needs be when they confirm my redundancy on Tuesday = I would hope as that argument really does seem pretty cut and dried that they will agree that part. Who knows though if past correspondence is to go by.

[Bigredbus]

Hi,

 

You are doing a Herculean job here and you are doing well...

 

Yes, you should not complicate your arguments more than it is necessary...

 

Collate al of the information you hold on your case and attend that meeting... accompanied by a representative.

 

Make sure that everything is explained to you as if you were a 3 years old child... the more detail you gather the better.

 

Make sure that everything they say is noted down, do not hesitate to stop any of them in order to take notes...

 

You are there mainly and principally to gather information on your situation...

 

You have done a great job so far...

[Sparklez30]

Thanks BRB I shall do just that!

 

And don't worry I know not to sign my right away to take further action as I am now on my third redundancy in 4 years I know they usually like to get you to sign something along those lines! (ps none of the redundancies have been about me - the first time the accounts were centralised but too far away for me to travel to especially as I had a very young child and last time was exactly the same as this - a large company bought out the company and incorporated the jobs into their head office up north - I swear I am so unlucky!)

 

I don't think I will get any further reply on the bonus as it will be a less senior member of hr and I am sure she will have been told not to discuss it

Edited February 9, 2012 by Sparklez30

[mariefab]

Hi Sparklez,

 

Good luck tomorrow. Hopefully they'll change their minds regarding your termination date.

 

Although they've stated that they won't 'correspond' further on the retention bonus issue; I suggest that (when you've finished discussing the termination date etc.) you inform them that you would like to formally appeal their decision not to award you the retention bonus and would like an appeal meeting at their earliest convenience.

(You might as well have one more try at resolving this in house before progressing to a Tribunal claim and when presented, at an appeal, with the evidence that you would use at Tribunal they may change their minds. As well as potentially saving you time and stress this will demonstrate that you exhausted every avenue before resorting to litigation.)

 

If they confirm that they intend to dismiss you, by reason of redundancy before 31st March you should appeal this decision too.

 

You can make good use of the person accompanying you by getting them to makes notes of anything significant during the meeting. (Get a signed copy of these notes.)

 

P.S. You said in #101 that you had email confirmation from you maternity cover of all the dates surrounding the retention bonus and end date.

Does this confirmation include;

The date she was verbally informed of the bonus.

The date/s on which she (and others) requested details about any further conditions about the bonus.

The date that she received written notification of the bonus.

The date that she received the conditions about the bonus.

Whether, or not, others who are being retained have received similar bonus conditions and if so when.

Any indication of the date on which the additional conditions of the bonus were compiled.

 

If you don't have confirmation of one, or more, in the list above; see what you can do to acquire it.

[Sparklez30]

Thanks they have decided now that as the other HR lady has so many people to see I will now be seen by the top two members of HR so i may still be able to put across my further points (i don't suppose this is the actual reason at all and expect that I infact get the HR manager & Director as I have asked them some difficult questions and probably upset them). I will make sure I ask to appeal both as suggested although it doesn't look so far like they are following any kind of grievance/complaint procedure so I don't expect much from that either but I would prefer to settle this if possible before having to take further action. I would like (if I can get them to agree) to furnish them with all my further questions and grievances at this meeting as at present they have not allowed me to put all my concerns/complaints across to them!

 

In response to your other questions:-

 

Does this confirmation include (from my maternity cover);

 

The date she was verbally informed of the bonus. yes 24/01/12 (I know just via casual conversations that others received the letter earlier but i don't have written confirmation of this and it was just informal chats. It does look like my mat cover got their letter late because they accidently sent it to me instead in error!)

 

The date/s on which she (and others) requested details about any further conditions about the bonus. yes 06/02/12 (I know others requested earlier than this but only through informal chats I don't have any written evidence of this - I can ask a colleague to confirm but of course there is no guarantee that she will?)

 

The date that she received written notification of the bonus. yes 05/02/12

 

The date that she received the conditions about the bonus. yes 08/02/12

 

Whether, or not, others who are being retained have received similar bonus conditions and if so when. no as this info would not come from her but in previous email with HR they confirmed others had their own terms to full fill

 

Any indication of the date on which the additional conditions of the bonus were compiled. no she would not know this and HR decided to ignore my request in relation to just when they sent them to my mat cover

 

However i sent them confirmation on 3rd feb that no terms were included and they still sent a letter to my mat cover without terms and conditions provided after I had made them aware of the error (as she did not receive a letter until 6th feb confirming the retention bonus in writing). Common sense would surely dictate that they did not write the terms and conditions until 5th or 6th Feb surely?

 

I can of course ask HR when they were written and why they weren't sent out but I don't expect them to admit they were written after I raised my complaint and there would be no way for me to prove or disprove this other than from the various time lines it is unlikely they were written before my complaint to them on 3rd Feb?

 

The terms themselves are just a very rough outline of some of my job specifications so there really is no excuse for the delay! They could have been written in minutes whilst looking at my job spec!

 

I also asked my mat cover to confirm when she was informed her termination date would be 31st march and she stated she found this out on 6th Feb

Edited February 13, 2012 by Sparklez30

[mariefab]

I agree that you can't 'prove' when the further conditions were compiled.

However, you can infer that they weren't created before 7th February by their absence from 27th January until this date.

If it came to a Tribunal they would need to prove otherwise.

[Sparklez30]

thanks Mariefab i do know from conversations with staff in my department that they received 2 requests before mine for the extra terms and from my maternity leave after I had requested them so i would expect that they cannot prove this as it would make no sense not to have provided them on request unless the terms had not been drafted.

 

I do plan to ask them to answer my further questions and hear out my grievances tomorrow during my third consultation meeting (now that I have had access to the further info that I needed). do you think i would be better off instead asking to appeal or can i do both or would just providing the details of my complaint tomorrow be sufficient (my worry about asking for an appeal to be held after tomorrow is that it will be very difficult for me to get a work place representative as most of the positions are likely to have been made redundant after tomorrow!)

[mariefab]

Remember that your primary agenda tomorrow is to establish that you cannot lawfully be dismissed before your post is made redundant.

You'll probably also want to make sure that you will be paid for your accrued holiday entitlement and notice (fingers crossed that they don't realise that there's an issue with the notice pay).

 

With regard to the retention bonus, they have made their decision and stated that they will not correspond further on the matter.

 

I think that you meriting top HR bods may well be because of the issues you've raised.

Be prepared for them to set the agenda of the meeting and perhaps attempt to steam-roll over your opinions.

 

If necessary as the meeting progresses ask for a short adjournment (with your rep) so that you can gauge the extent to which you have gathered the information you require. You could then note any further questions you have and resume the meeting to get the answers.

 

If they are prepared to discuss the bonus, do so. But make sure that by the end of the meeting they have either given you a final No (in which case you inform them that you wish to formally appeal) or, in the event that they agree to go away consider it further, a date by which you will receive their reviewed decision (no more than a week).

[Sparklez30]

thanks Mariefab I have taken all of the above on board

[Sparklez30]

they agreed the end date was wrong and they had overlooked that fact so they have agreed that the last date at work should be 31st and then 4 weeks notice PILON at that point.

 

I put all my points across on the retention bonus and they are looking into and getting back to me today or tomorrow the possibility of either returning to my position early (which i know means i miss out on smp however it is in my favour to do this financially as i will end up slightly better off) and if not are taking further advice on everything else. They started to take my complaint seriously when i pointed out that remuneration relates to wages and salary and discretionary bonuses can still be payable,

 

My gut instinct says they will get me back into my position as it costs them less but i shall wait and see what they say later

[honeybee13]

Hello there and thank you for the update.

 

I'd say you handled it very well from what you say. I hope this goes in your favour.

 

My best, HB

[mariefab]

Very well done indeed!

[Sparklez30]

well I'm not very satisfied with the return to work option as i will only marginally be better off however I have stipulated this is something we can discuss and also the option of instead working keep in touch days and also that I need not to be put at any disadvantage because I was not provided the information when it was available (as i won't be better off if they now make me give 4 weeks notice and then return to work - i will in fact be much worse off!) and also that they should not have both myself and my maternity cover in position for the duration as we would not both need to undertake the same tasks (we wouldn't have enough to do!)

[Sparklez30]

Can I ask a question - KIT days would make alot more sense in my circumstances. I understand if I work them that I can do 10 days and still get SMP. If i do anymore I believe I would lose SMP for that week? or is it that my maternity leave automatically ends.

 

 

Is there any reason that as it is for such a short period that I could not request that KIT days be used instead of return to work under the unusual situation that has arisen?

 

 

If so I would propose emailing this to clarify my position to them

 

 

Dearxxx,

 

Further to my previous email (below) and our meeting earlier I am pleased that you are willing to discuss the options around the possibility of me being allowed the chance to fulfil the requirements to receive the retention bonus. Having looked into the matter I have found that the delay in enabling me to discuss the options surrounding the retention bonus has already put me at a disadvantage however I have also discovered that I can work 10 Keep in touch days whilst still on maternity leave.

 

As the tasks proposed (for the future not the past as discussed) would not require to work full time up to 31st March I would propose that it would be reasonable (considering the short time frame) to allow me to work up to the 10 KIT days to complete the tasks outlined without requiring me to return so early from maternity leave.

 

If you decide to allow me to attempt to complete the tasks provided this would be a preferable option, would not disadvantage me because you had not provided the information when required and would still allow me to spend quality time with my young son and not force me to end my maternity leave early just to complete the tasks requested. If it is considered that the retention period be from 13th March to 31st March and the tasks applicable are therefore just those relating to March then 10 working days should be plenty to complete those outlined conditions.

 

Returning to work early from maternity leave is not preferable as the delays in being able to make the decision due to not being provided with the information when it was available would put me at a disadvantage at this stage and it would no longer to be in my best financial interest to return to my position at this stage.

 

If you decide that you will not allow me to attempt to fulfil the tasks required then you are aware of my disagreements in relation to the tasks you have now provided to me.

 

 

xxx

 

**edit ** I have sent the above email - I do not see why it would not be possible to complete the tasks in 10 working days particularly if the retention period is considered to be from 13th March however if the retention period is considered to be from 15/02/12 instead then It may still be possible to complete the required tasks in the 10 days - had I returned to work in early february then it would have been in my interest to return however as it has already been delayed due to them not providing the information earlier I would now be better off not returning to work. Its most frustrating!

Edited February 14, 2012 by Sparklez30

[mariefab]

Unless the HR department are significantly more incompetent than we have evidence for so far, the person covering your maternity leave will have a clause in her contract explicitly stating that her employment ends on your return to work.

 

You could work 10 KIT days, but be aware if you do any more than 10 your maternity leave will automatically end and so will the enhanced protection of your rights.

 

You would still have an underlying entitlement to SMP, but entitlement to statutory leave and to statutory pay are 2 different things.

[Sparklez30]

although she would have that clause i believe she gets 4 weeks notice (so as we are now so much through feb it effectively means she could not leave until 13th March), I wondered whether the letter sent would be an issue although unless hers is different to mine is just says you have to be employed to 31st March to receive the bonus so I guess she would just not receive the bonus however I think that I can argue that the retention period for me would be from 13th March to 31st March (as not only would this date be the date that my maternity leave could leave after notice it is also the period after the 4 week notice that all other staff have been given although they are being offered either gardening leave or PILON depending on their preference so most will terminate as at 14th Feb instead however I think its arguable).

 

I believe it may actually also possible to complete the tasks listed if they applied from mid feb to end of march in the ten days I could work but obviously it is much tighter and I am not sure that I could guarantee it was possible - !!

 

Sorry Mariefab i don't understand the last line of yours or the implications? I have not suggested to them to work more than 10 days as I was unsure what implications it would have for me?.

[Sparklez30]

Oh and a PS just for clarity not that it makes any difference it is two seperate HR departments that have been dealing with the redundancy and the employment of my maternity cover (as the company was taken over after I went on maternity leave so my former employer arranged the mat cover and the new owner is arranging the redundancy through their HR department). I don't know the mat cover contract but suspect it is 4 weeks notice as is a standard contract, they didn't correct me when I said this - she's also on holiday at the moment so I'm not sure they can give her notice just yet?

[mariefab]

I'm sorry for the confusion caused by the last line of my post #118.

I was distracted half way through writing it and so I didn't notice that you had editted your post #117 until after I hit reply.

I was responding to the possibility of using more than 10 KIT days.

Although someone working more than 10 kit days would still have an entitlement to SMP they would lose their entitlement to maternity leave (and it's protection).

 

It's good to know that the new company is arranging the redundancy because it gives you someone to sue if this isn't resolved to your satisfaction.

Things are potentially complicated for them because of the offer of the bonus to your maternity cover and her notice period.

Hopefully they'll agree to just pay you the bonus as the easiest solution.

[Sparklez30]

Sorry i do edit them alot lol

 

Once I pointed out that discretionary bonuses could be payable still as they are not considered wages and salary and that I was aware this had been tested and won at a tribunal they then took my other complaints seriously and listened to them all (and went away with my written questions and complaints so there can be no confusion).

 

I don't see why KIT days cannot be applicable in this case and am hopeful they will just decide it is easier to just offer me the bonus too and learn for next time lol (probably not to send the letter to the wrong person although it is no secret at work and if i hadn't already have known it was talked about in front of me when I popped into the office anyway - maybe a confidentiality clause would have been sensible)

 

oh and they confirmed that the tasks were written very recently but they denied that they were constructed as such to specificly exclude me and said that they were listing the parts of the job that needed to be completed and to offer a bonus to make sure that staff that were needed didn't just leave. I did suggest as they were simply a rough outline of my job spec and that the only reason I couldn't complete them was because I was on maternity leave could also be argued as discrimatory especially as if I wasn't on mat leave I would be undertaking these duties!

 

I also queried why some of the tasks related to a period which wouldn't considered to be part of the retention period - they said they didn't know - they agreed it was odd and could only think that when they were drawn up the tasks had not yet been completed.

[mariefab]

You obviously presented an excellent case.

Did you give them the case name (just to be helpful lol!) and inform that the decision is still binding on Tribunals.

 

Really, when you consider the cost of the time of the people dealing with this to date (and at an appeal if they don't capitulate) add to that the potential £000's that it would cost them to defend a Tribunal claim simply giving you the bonus is the cheapest option for them.

[Sparklez30]

I know its only a couple of grand - alot to me - not a lot to them!!

 

I didn't as I couldn't remember it off hand (cases aren't very catchy all I remember is GUS homeshopping vs someone lol)

[Sparklez30]

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have had a letter stating they do not agree that I should have had the info or that I was discriminated against but as they do not want a protracted legal battle over the matter they are offering me the amount equivalent to the bonus to settle the matter!

 

Thank you soooo much Mariefab, Sidewinder and BRB

 

(and they don't want me to do any work or KIT days they are effectively just settling

 

I really appreciate all the help and pointers in the right direction I received on here - I wouldn't have got so far without you

 

 

 

Oh and now I have the breakdown they are paying me my slary rate for the 4 weeks notice plus SMP as well (thats very generous of them!)

 

I of course have to sign my right away to sue them but I shall now happily do this!

Edited February 15, 2012 by Sparklez30