Lords veto welfare reform bill with votes against on 3 proposals

[sadone]

Even the Daily Mail thinks these welfare reforms are wrong..

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2094805/Why-does-David-Cameron-insist-disability-cuts-sickened-party.html

[grahamengineering]

Just did a quick search on london jobs on totaljobs. Carpenter in London is getting between £12-£15 an hour in most cases. So say he gets £13.50 an hour before tax. Thats £540 a week BEFORE tax!

[sadone]

Well done....

[osdset]

Osdset, I know what you get to keep yourself isn't a lot of money. But it is reasonably enough to feed & cloth you and keep you warm if you are living in a 1 bedroom house. I know this because I've done it. Benefit isn't to give you any more than enough to survive on..

How long did you do it for may I ask? Most could get by short term, try doing it for years, it's not enough, there is no contingency fund for the long term sick on a fixed income to keep up with increasing utility bills, food, clothing etc, there comes a time when there simply is nothing left to budget with, that's when the debts start mounting up, and that's just about where I am now, I'm not asking for luxuries, and I did not ask to be in this situation, I hate being on benefits, which is why I am doing something about it, if I have to go back to work and take my chances with my health then so be it, anything is better than this existence. TBH I would rather be dead than face the rest of my life living like a pauper.

[osdset]

You genuinely think £26k take home a year as poor? Come on how many carpenters have you heard of on £78k a year?

You are missing the point, I said if the wage had kept up with inflation it would be that figure.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

The people I really feel for are the homeless, if they are PWA, thats a person without an address, that means no address even to send mail to, how ever disabled they are they only get the basic £67.50 per week no disability premiums, surely being out on the street they would need it more, cant fathom it... They live on 4.5k per year

[osdset]

Just did a quick search on london jobs on totaljobs. Carpenter in London is getting between £12-£15 an hour in most cases. So say he gets £13.50 an hour before tax. Thats £540 a week BEFORE tax!

Yes, and your point is what exactly? It's a skilled job it should command a wage commensurate with skills and experience, just like a car mechanic, plumber, or engineer, for example.

[MARTIN3030]

Site team monitoring.

Skating on thin ice ? comes to mind.

[grahamengineering]

My point osdset, is that you brought up being a carpenter and inflation. Inflation affects all of us, on benifits or not. What example I am giving with that is that if a skilled person going out doing 40 hours work a week is getting £540 before tax, chances are he has a wife who stays at home raising the children so this is their sole income. Why then should a benifit claimant end up with substantially more a week to keep them than a skilled working man. by the time he gets his deductions taken off he is likely down to £400 a week in his pocket to pay all his bills.

[grahamengineering]

If that is being directed at me Martin, Can you please point out anything I have said which is insulting or untrue. I will try and reply to them and make myself clearer. Also any idea why I cannot use paragraphs or clcik on anything to adjust text in message box?

Edited February 1, 2012 by grahamengineering

[silverfox1961]

This is a normal family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16812185

[Nystagmite]

My point osdset, is that you brought up being a carpenter and inflation. Inflation affects all of us, on benifits or not. What example I am giving with that is that if a skilled person going out doing 40 hours work a week is getting £540 before tax, chances are he has a wife who stays at home raising the children so this is their sole income. Why then should a benifit claimant end up with substantially more a week to keep them than a skilled working man. by the time he gets his deductions taken off he is likely down to £400 a week in his pocket to pay all his bills.

 

Except it's not his sole income - they'll receive child benefit and child tax credits.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

Yes he would lose £84 per week but by his own admission spends £120 a week on fags, 24 cans of lager and a large pouch of tobacco!

 

Its sad but I dont think the article has not done the man any justice at all........

[osdset]

Well the point I was trying to make in a round about way is that benefits are in general not too high, it's that wages are too low.

There are the well published accounts of Mr&Mrs X with fourteen kids living in two terraced houses knocked together, at a huge rent and copping fortunes in benefits, these are the exceptions that the government would like you, and the rest of Joe public to focus on. The reality for most claimants is very different.

This governments agenda is to divide and conquer, and looking at this thread they seem to be succeeding.

[Nystagmite]

I would hardly call a "normal family" one with 7 children. Most people I know have 1-3 children. I'm sure most people don't smoke and drink like that either.

[grahamengineering]

Silverfox, Forgive me here but that example is a bit of an anomally from the 2.4 children I would consider to be the average. But just after a very quick look at it I'd say there are a number of issues needing addressed in that household. Firstly, why isn't the Mother of the 3 children from the first marriage not contributing to their upkeep. Next, OK the ideal job for the man doesn't exist. But he could theoretically do other work, be it stacking shelves in tesco. They then say they have a £60 a month subscription to sky- hardly one of lives essentials. They also smoke approx £60 a week in cigs and say £20 for the baccy. Added to the case of lager at £30. By removing these non essentials from the budget I could save that family £500 a month.

[sadone]

This is a normal family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16812185

 

*sigh* Like The BBC isn't adverse to a bit of sh*t stirring up now and again. IMO they've just become yet another willing participant in the Government spin doctoring.

[grahamengineering]

I totally agree wages are by and large low osdset. What I do disagree on is that benifits being seen as being anything more than a safety net if you land on hard times. Not to give a person the same standard of living as someone working.

[osdset]

*sigh* Like The BBC isn't adverse to a bit of sh*t stirring up now and again. IMO they've just become yet another willing participant in the Government spin doctoring.

Don't get me started on the BBC! Unbiased reporting? Yeah right, just as a light hearted aside, my pet hate is Cowboy Builders, what about Cowboy Customers then? I've met plenty of those over the years.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

It beats me where they get their figures from, quote £300 tax credits would well be over £390 and jsa is £105.95 not £100 adds up to a lot more per year, so that family would stand to lose a lot more after the cap

Edited February 2, 2012 by MIKEY DABODEE

[osdset]

I totally agree wages are by and large low osdset. What I do disagree on is that benifits being seen as being anything more than a safety net if you land on hard times. Not to give a person the same standard of living as someone working.

Yes, a safety net for hard times, but the hard times seem here to stay don't they? The level of unemployment looks unlikely to improve any time soon, I can only see things getting worse I'm afraid. I'm not going to argue with you anymore about standards of living, benefits, or work. You are entitled to your opinion as am I, lets agree to differ and call it a day.

[grahamengineering]

Just read that article on BBC again. I quote 'I see a family having to choose between eating and heating'. For crying out loud your spending £500 of the taxpayers money a month on enjoying yourself. Also go get some money off your ex wife for the upkeep of her 3 kids!!!

[sadone]

A)How do you know they're not the exception rather then the rule? and B) How can you believe anything the damn BBC come up with these days. Their whole reporting of the welfare reform uptil now has been to just tow the government line, and when analyzed their facts have often been proven to be wrong and at the very least misleading.

 

But then there appears to be an awful lot of ill informed right wingers in this country just willing to take whats being said at face value.

 

By the time the rest of these very unfair and draconian measures are brought in and people start feeling their true effects It will be far too late of course.

Edited February 1, 2012 by sadone

[Paul the Farmer]

I agree with Mikey Dabodee. I work a 50 hour week and earn a lot less than £26k before tax. I couldn't afford to smoke 200 fags and drink 24 cans a week, even if I wanted to, and I don't have Sky TV. I thought benefits were supposed to help you out of a hole when you've fallen on hard times, not be a lifestyle choice. Ironically Raymond's cigarettes cost about the same amount weekly as his rent!

[keldas]

Fight Back

 

Are you horrified by the government reversing all the hard won amendments by the Lords yesterday.

Sign Pat's Petition at - http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968 - to tell MPs they can't do this. Tell every one else to sign today

 

Write to the Speaker John Bercow and ask him not to authorise this misuse of procedure in closing the debate down in the Lords.

 

We could all contact John Bercow and ask to make sure the House of Commons don't.

 

Rt. Hon. John Bercow MP

Speaker’s House

House of Commons

London

SW1A 0AA

email: BERCOWJ@parliament.uk